5 ms·

Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I ta

Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!! Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come back to prison because they'll "die in glory" in a gun fight against the cops next time so they can't be arrested? Or about becoming a drug kingpin? Sounds like you think I'm saying these people were claiming nice things about themselves, but really they're mostly claiming quite bad things if it makes me think they're going to be back and were strongly negatively influenced by peers in prison. On the topic of regular people who prison serves as a deterrent for, I'd look at other countries where crime rates are lower without the same hideous institution. Clearly it's not just horrible prisons which prevent noncriminals from committing crime, since so many countries don't have that? I guess that's up for debate.

Merman_Mike 6y ago
Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments. If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  Generally, deterrents such as extremely harsh prison sentences have no evidence that they're actually effective. Many nonviolent crimes such as the kind associated with addiction will occur as a result the illness. Other violent crimes such as murder occur compulsively, and therefore do not respond to rational thinking such as "jail really sucks bro". Think of it like this though: If harsh, dehumanizing punishments were an effective deterrent, crimes would've gone up when we stopped chopping off people's limbs for stealing, and in fact we'd have more stealing in modern day than at any time in history because public mutilation is not an acceptable punishment now.
- slowmovintarget 6y ago
  Because people who commit crimes tend to think that they won't get caught. For repeat offenders, they either think they won't get caught, or if they do, they "know how to do time." Granted this was from studies done in the 70s and 80s that I recall from prepping for a debate on the death penalty.
S_A_P 6y ago
The problem as I see it is politicians don’t want to be the person legislating prison reform when it is so easy for their opponents to blame a horrendous crime on their “soft on crime” stance. I do think prison is at least a partial deterrent for me and my actions but it’s certainly not my main motivation for my actions. The problem with prison is the permanent stigma and lack of options for those with criminal records. Without much hope for success it’s easy to see why folks would be likely to reoffend.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  On the other hand, a lot of the "tough on crime" messaging comes from the unique context of the 70s and 80s, when crime was much higher than today and continually rising. I'm hopeful that prison reform is a much more politically palatable message now that crime has been trending down for decades.
  - endominus 6y ago
    Crime may be trending down, but I think the perception is that it's more common - I remember reading the results of multiple polls to that effect over the last decade. People consistently believe that crime has gotten worse. Part of there blame was placed on the news media overreporting crime stories (as what else are they going to talk about when nothing exciting is happening?) which skews public perception of the actual scale of the problem.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      The polling I'm familiar with (e.g. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx) indicates that there's been a significant shift. In particular I'd point at the "too tough, not tough enough or about right" question; in 1992, the idea that we shouldn't be tougher on crime was quite radical and the idea that we're too tough on crime was practically nonexistent.
      - endominus 6y ago

Merman_Mike 6y ago

Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments. If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?

KittenInABox 6y ago
Generally, deterrents such as extremely harsh prison sentences have no evidence that they're actually effective. Many nonviolent crimes such as the kind associated with addiction will occur as a result the illness. Other violent crimes such as murder occur compulsively, and therefore do not respond to rational thinking such as "jail really sucks bro". Think of it like this though: If harsh, dehumanizing punishments were an effective deterrent, crimes would've gone up when we stopped chopping off people's limbs for stealing, and in fact we'd have more stealing in modern day than at any time in history because public mutilation is not an acceptable punishment now.
slowmovintarget 6y ago
Because people who commit crimes tend to think that they won't get caught. For repeat offenders, they either think they won't get caught, or if they do, they "know how to do time." Granted this was from studies done in the 70s and 80s that I recall from prepping for a debate on the death penalty.

S_A_P 6y ago

The problem as I see it is politicians don’t want to be the person legislating prison reform when it is so easy for their opponents to blame a horrendous crime on their “soft on crime” stance. I do think prison is at least a partial deterrent for me and my actions but it’s certainly not my main motivation for my actions. The problem with prison is the permanent stigma and lack of options for those with criminal records. Without much hope for success it’s easy to see why folks would be likely to reoffend.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
On the other hand, a lot of the "tough on crime" messaging comes from the unique context of the 70s and 80s, when crime was much higher than today and continually rising. I'm hopeful that prison reform is a much more politically palatable message now that crime has been trending down for decades.
- endominus 6y ago
  Crime may be trending down, but I think the perception is that it's more common - I remember reading the results of multiple polls to that effect over the last decade. People consistently believe that crime has gotten worse. Part of there blame was placed on the news media overreporting crime stories (as what else are they going to talk about when nothing exciting is happening?) which skews public perception of the actual scale of the problem.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    The polling I'm familiar with (e.g. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx) indicates that there's been a significant shift. In particular I'd point at the "too tough, not tough enough or about right" question; in 1992, the idea that we shouldn't be tougher on crime was quite radical and the idea that we're too tough on crime was practically nonexistent.
    - endominus 6y ago