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> it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this) 1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the

by wisty 6y ago

> it doesn't serve as a deterrent (based on talking to ~50 prisoners about this) 1. Talking to prisoners doesn't mean it's not a deterrent for the rest of the population. This is a massive selection bias, it's like saying diet and exercise doesn't work because morbidly obese people say it doesn't work for them. 2. People sometimes lie (often first to themselves), especially about their motivations. This is like an angry teenager yelling that all their rebellion is because of their parents' rules, it's often a self-serving rationalisation. 3. There's no doubt that the US prison system is a bit weird if you compare it to the rest of the world.

throwaway998662 6y ago
Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!! Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come back to prison because they'll "die in glory" in a gun fight against the cops next time so they can't be arrested? Or about becoming a drug kingpin? Sounds like you think I'm saying these people were claiming nice things about themselves, but really they're mostly claiming quite bad things if it makes me think they're going to be back and were strongly negatively influenced by peers in prison. On the topic of regular people who prison serves as a deterrent for, I'd look at other countries where crime rates are lower without the same hideous institution. Clearly it's not just horrible prisons which prevent noncriminals from committing crime, since so many countries don't have that? I guess that's up for debate.
- Merman_Mike 6y ago
  Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments. If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?
  - KittenInABox 6y ago
    Generally, deterrents such as extremely harsh prison sentences have no evidence that they're actually effective. Many nonviolent crimes such as the kind associated with addiction will occur as a result the illness. Other violent crimes such as murder occur compulsively, and therefore do not respond to rational thinking such as "jail really sucks bro". Think of it like this though: If harsh, dehumanizing punishments were an effective deterrent, crimes would've gone up when we stopped chopping off people's limbs for stealing, and in fact we'd have more stealing in modern day than at any time in history because public mutilation is not an acceptable punishment now.
  - slowmovintarget 6y ago
    Because people who commit crimes tend to think that they won't get caught. For repeat offenders, they either think they won't get caught, or if they do, they "know how to do time." Granted this was from studies done in the 70s and 80s that I recall from prepping for a debate on the death penalty.
- S_A_P 6y ago
  The problem as I see it is politicians don’t want to be the person legislating prison reform when it is so easy for their opponents to blame a horrendous crime on their “soft on crime” stance. I do think prison is at least a partial deterrent for me and my actions but it’s certainly not my main motivation for my actions. The problem with prison is the permanent stigma and lack of options for those with criminal records. Without much hope for success it’s easy to see why folks would be likely to reoffend.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    On the other hand, a lot of the "tough on crime" messaging comes from the unique context of the 70s and 80s, when crime was much higher than today and continually rising. I'm hopeful that prison reform is a much more politically palatable message now that crime has been trending down for decades.
    - endominus 6y ago
      Crime may be trending down, but I think the perception is that it's more common - I remember reading the results of multiple polls to that effect over the last decade. People consistently believe that crime has gotten worse. Part of there blame was placed on the news media overreporting crime stories (as what else are they going to talk about when nothing exciting is happening?) which skews public perception of the actual scale of the problem.
      - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        The polling I'm familiar with (e.g. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx) indicates that there's been a significant shift. In particular I'd point at the "too tough, not tough enough or about right" question; in 1992, the idea that we shouldn't be tougher on crime was quite radical and the idea that we're too tough on crime was practically nonexistent.
        endominus 6y ago
escape_goat 6y ago
Could we just not do things like this. I'm sorry to be singling anyone out but there is a pattern here. People, the "well actually" rebuttals that you pull out of thin air in two minutes are not a useful or meaningful response to someone's reportage of their lives experience and do not facilitate the quality of discussion that brought you to HN in the first place, and if you do not understand that then consider that perhaps a life in which most problems are inherently tractable, if not an easy search result from Stack Overflow, does not actually leave you with a correct understanding of your ability to understand or solve complex problems in the world.
- smbullet 6y ago
  Rather than personal attacks you should take the time to actually respond to their comment if you feel so strongly against it.
  - escape_goat 6y ago
    I took the time to respond to what I felt strongly about, and maybe characterizing criticism as a "personal attack" describes how it makes you feel, but that doesn't mean that it describes what it is.
    - smbullet 6y ago
      Calling somebody sheltered is objectively a personal attack on this forum.
      - escape_goat 6y ago
        I absolutely intended to tell an entire category of people that they were sheltered. I disagree with you, but it's true that I've certainly seen the term appear within the context of a personal attack in the past, so I agree that if I had found a better way in which to express my anger and disapproval then that would have been preferable.
    - justinclift 6y ago
tartoran 6y ago
So you’re saying prison is simply a deterrent for the unimprisoned? So it’s okay there is rape and murder in there because it makes people stay on the right side of the law on the outside of prisons? Is that what you’re saying or am i misunderstanding? I think it’s best for a society to implement policies to reduce crime not to scare people into complying with the law. The alternative is quite negative. Also, let’s remind ourselves that people are imprisoned in the US for stupid things like smoking pot, not paying tickets, scared into guilty pleas. Some of those people harden and become career criminals in prison and in the end it results in more crime.

by wisty 6y ago

throwaway998662 6y ago

Most people who end up in prisoners in the USA are reoffenders. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world and very high crime rates. So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!! Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come back to prison because they'll "die in glory" in a gun fight against the cops next time so they can't be arrested? Or about becoming a drug kingpin? Sounds like you think I'm saying these people were claiming nice things about themselves, but really they're mostly claiming quite bad things if it makes me think they're going to be back and were strongly negatively influenced by peers in prison. On the topic of regular people who prison serves as a deterrent for, I'd look at other countries where crime rates are lower without the same hideous institution. Clearly it's not just horrible prisons which prevent noncriminals from committing crime, since so many countries don't have that? I guess that's up for debate.

Merman_Mike 6y ago
Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments. If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  Generally, deterrents such as extremely harsh prison sentences have no evidence that they're actually effective. Many nonviolent crimes such as the kind associated with addiction will occur as a result the illness. Other violent crimes such as murder occur compulsively, and therefore do not respond to rational thinking such as "jail really sucks bro". Think of it like this though: If harsh, dehumanizing punishments were an effective deterrent, crimes would've gone up when we stopped chopping off people's limbs for stealing, and in fact we'd have more stealing in modern day than at any time in history because public mutilation is not an acceptable punishment now.
- slowmovintarget 6y ago
  Because people who commit crimes tend to think that they won't get caught. For repeat offenders, they either think they won't get caught, or if they do, they "know how to do time." Granted this was from studies done in the 70s and 80s that I recall from prepping for a debate on the death penalty.
S_A_P 6y ago
The problem as I see it is politicians don’t want to be the person legislating prison reform when it is so easy for their opponents to blame a horrendous crime on their “soft on crime” stance. I do think prison is at least a partial deterrent for me and my actions but it’s certainly not my main motivation for my actions. The problem with prison is the permanent stigma and lack of options for those with criminal records. Without much hope for success it’s easy to see why folks would be likely to reoffend.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  On the other hand, a lot of the "tough on crime" messaging comes from the unique context of the 70s and 80s, when crime was much higher than today and continually rising. I'm hopeful that prison reform is a much more politically palatable message now that crime has been trending down for decades.
  - endominus 6y ago
    Crime may be trending down, but I think the perception is that it's more common - I remember reading the results of multiple polls to that effect over the last decade. People consistently believe that crime has gotten worse. Part of there blame was placed on the news media overreporting crime stories (as what else are they going to talk about when nothing exciting is happening?) which skews public perception of the actual scale of the problem.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      The polling I'm familiar with (e.g. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx) indicates that there's been a significant shift. In particular I'd point at the "too tough, not tough enough or about right" question; in 1992, the idea that we shouldn't be tougher on crime was quite radical and the idea that we're too tough on crime was practically nonexistent.
      - endominus 6y ago

escape_goat 6y ago

Could we just not do things like this. I'm sorry to be singling anyone out but there is a pattern here. People, the "well actually" rebuttals that you pull out of thin air in two minutes are not a useful or meaningful response to someone's reportage of their lives experience and do not facilitate the quality of discussion that brought you to HN in the first place, and if you do not understand that then consider that perhaps a life in which most problems are inherently tractable, if not an easy search result from Stack Overflow, does not actually leave you with a correct understanding of your ability to understand or solve complex problems in the world.

smbullet 6y ago
Rather than personal attacks you should take the time to actually respond to their comment if you feel so strongly against it.
- escape_goat 6y ago
  I took the time to respond to what I felt strongly about, and maybe characterizing criticism as a "personal attack" describes how it makes you feel, but that doesn't mean that it describes what it is.
  - smbullet 6y ago
    Calling somebody sheltered is objectively a personal attack on this forum.
    - escape_goat 6y ago
      I absolutely intended to tell an entire category of people that they were sheltered. I disagree with you, but it's true that I've certainly seen the term appear within the context of a personal attack in the past, so I agree that if I had found a better way in which to express my anger and disapproval then that would have been preferable.
  - justinclift 6y ago

tartoran 6y ago

So you’re saying prison is simply a deterrent for the unimprisoned? So it’s okay there is rape and murder in there because it makes people stay on the right side of the law on the outside of prisons? Is that what you’re saying or am i misunderstanding? I think it’s best for a society to implement policies to reduce crime not to scare people into complying with the law. The alternative is quite negative. Also, let’s remind ourselves that people are imprisoned in the US for stupid things like smoking pot, not paying tickets, scared into guilty pleas. Some of those people harden and become career criminals in prison and in the end it results in more crime.