4 ms·

I wonder if Windows ARM will be so mature that by the time these groups get x86 parity with Intel, it won't matter outside of specialized high-performance appli

I wonder if Windows ARM will be so mature that by the time these groups get x86 parity with Intel, it won't matter outside of specialized high-performance applications like gaming because we'll be migrating to ARM by then anyway.

faitswulff 6y ago
Other than Apple silicon, is there any other competitive ARM desktop processor? If not, and if, as the article states, the Chinese government is funding a 100% domestic silicon stack by 2022, then Zhaoxin might be competitive sooner rather than later.
- k_sze 6y ago
  I’m thinking Microsoft’s SQ2 or other Qualcomm chips might end up in a laptop first (Surface Pro X doesn’t count as a proper laptop), then desktop soon after. (Complete speculation though)
- djsumdog 6y ago
  I'm really afraid of Linux getting left behind in the dust. It will be interesting to see if we will get RISC-V devices that can stay competitive with Apple's proprietary ARM based chips.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    > It will be interesting to see if we will get RISC-V devices that can stay competitive with Apple's proprietary ARM based chips. Just to really make this obvious in case of any misunderstanding: RISC-V is an open ISA. You are free to use the instruction set. A microarchitecture implementing the RISC-V ISA can be just as proprietary as the developers please.
  - solarkraft 6y ago
    But Linux has been working perfectly on ARM for many years (decades at this point?). We just need general purpose computing to stay alive (and it's not actually being killed with the M1 yet). RISC-V doesn't make much of a difference here. You can still build highly locked-down proprietary systems using it.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      In fact, Apple occupies a fairly tiny fraction of ARM that's not shipping Linux out of the box - most ARM chips are running Android or some other embedded Linux spin. Inferior hacked-up Linux installs on locked-down hardware, yes, but just running Linux on ARM isn't anything like a difficulty.
      - majewsky 6y ago
        Running a non-ancient Linux on ARM is what's difficult. Especially when connecting stuff to the internet, it's completely unacceptable to have to rely on some 3.x or 4.x kernel that the vendor patched to death to make it run, then abandoned to move on to the next SKU.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      > You can still build highly locked-down proprietary systems using it M1 is oh-so close to that
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      Linux doesn't really work with ARM boards. It's more of a clusterfuck. You can run mainline Linux on any PC. When it comes to mobile ARM, there is no unified device management system (UEFI/BIOS). Devicetree is a joke and no one uses it, and every device take a Linux kernel and patches the hell out of it in totally non-upstreamable ways. PostmarketOS has made great strides in fixing this issue, but Linux doesn't just work on ARM. You have to port each distro you want to use to each and every device. With a PC, you can buy any Lenovo, Dell, HP, etc off the self and you will always be able to boot to a console; usually graphics mode too. That's not the same case at all with ARM boards. I wrote more about this a few years back: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  > any other competitive ARM desktop processor Perhaps better to say any other competitive ARM machine, since the actual CPUs are generally fine (not amazing, mind, but good enough) but crippled by unfortunate firmware/motherboards/etc.
- ksec 6y ago
  >is there any other competitive ARM desktop processor? Depends. There are ARM Server Processor, there are also ARM High Performance CPU-Core Design ready to be fabbed. So the question here isn't if there is one, it is who has the right incentive to fab one.

faitswulff 6y ago

Other than Apple silicon, is there any other competitive ARM desktop processor? If not, and if, as the article states, the Chinese government is funding a 100% domestic silicon stack by 2022, then Zhaoxin might be competitive sooner rather than later.

k_sze 6y ago
I’m thinking Microsoft’s SQ2 or other Qualcomm chips might end up in a laptop first (Surface Pro X doesn’t count as a proper laptop), then desktop soon after. (Complete speculation though)
djsumdog 6y ago
I'm really afraid of Linux getting left behind in the dust. It will be interesting to see if we will get RISC-V devices that can stay competitive with Apple's proprietary ARM based chips.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  > It will be interesting to see if we will get RISC-V devices that can stay competitive with Apple's proprietary ARM based chips. Just to really make this obvious in case of any misunderstanding: RISC-V is an open ISA. You are free to use the instruction set. A microarchitecture implementing the RISC-V ISA can be just as proprietary as the developers please.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  But Linux has been working perfectly on ARM for many years (decades at this point?). We just need general purpose computing to stay alive (and it's not actually being killed with the M1 yet). RISC-V doesn't make much of a difference here. You can still build highly locked-down proprietary systems using it.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    In fact, Apple occupies a fairly tiny fraction of ARM that's not shipping Linux out of the box - most ARM chips are running Android or some other embedded Linux spin. Inferior hacked-up Linux installs on locked-down hardware, yes, but just running Linux on ARM isn't anything like a difficulty.
    - majewsky 6y ago
      Running a non-ancient Linux on ARM is what's difficult. Especially when connecting stuff to the internet, it's completely unacceptable to have to rely on some 3.x or 4.x kernel that the vendor patched to death to make it run, then abandoned to move on to the next SKU.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    > You can still build highly locked-down proprietary systems using it M1 is oh-so close to that
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    Linux doesn't really work with ARM boards. It's more of a clusterfuck. You can run mainline Linux on any PC. When it comes to mobile ARM, there is no unified device management system (UEFI/BIOS). Devicetree is a joke and no one uses it, and every device take a Linux kernel and patches the hell out of it in totally non-upstreamable ways. PostmarketOS has made great strides in fixing this issue, but Linux doesn't just work on ARM. You have to port each distro you want to use to each and every device. With a PC, you can buy any Lenovo, Dell, HP, etc off the self and you will always be able to boot to a console; usually graphics mode too. That's not the same case at all with ARM boards. I wrote more about this a few years back: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/android-fragmentation/
yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
> any other competitive ARM desktop processor Perhaps better to say any other competitive ARM machine, since the actual CPUs are generally fine (not amazing, mind, but good enough) but crippled by unfortunate firmware/motherboards/etc.
ksec 6y ago
>is there any other competitive ARM desktop processor? Depends. There are ARM Server Processor, there are also ARM High Performance CPU-Core Design ready to be fabbed. So the question here isn't if there is one, it is who has the right incentive to fab one.