6 ms·

Indian Govt proposes to buy bulk subscriptions of all scientific journals

haltingproblem 6y ago
Acutely aware of the multiplier effect of this on access and research but are there any possible downsides? Could this cut funding for journals or perhaps create a flood of submissions to top-tier journals? Is there any reason why this might have negative externalities?
- johnday 6y ago
  I'm not sure why you're hunting for downsides, but... It will create a moat between "worthy" and "unworthy" scientific journals - those which the Indian government is willing to support financially and those which it is not. There may also be some risk that Indian government will give preferential treatment to journals that publish more from their own institutions.
  - surgecoach 6y ago
    Would mostly be a good thing but yes could also lead to pushing of journals to be one of those selected
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    You should always always ask how it could go wrong. Popper called this critical rationalism - it is always good to invert and check for downstream effects. We can see "good measured" going horribly wrong and warping society for generations. You point out two excellent ones already (thank you) - the journals that the Indian government does not subscribe will wither and die no matter how good they are. This can lead to a curse of winner takes all. It can also lead to a preferential promotion of accepted and unaccepted theories - similar to what happened in the Soviet Union regarding Lysenkoism vs. Darwin's theories.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  This is a good move if implemented right. A small danger is that the right-wing government may selfishly promote and finance low quality journals to further its own pseudo-scientific agendas: - "Astrology is the biggest science. It is in fact above science. We should promote it." (a) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/astrology-is-science-says-bjp-mp-nishank/article10929912.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/astrology-is-science-... (b) https://frontline.thehindu.com/the-nation/education/article30222958.ece https://frontline.thehindu.com/the-nation/education/article3... - Government money spent on researching properties of cow dung and cow urine because according to the right-wing, cow-god-mother's excretions have "magical properties". (a) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/indian-scientists-decry-infuriating-scheme-study-benefits-cow-dung-urine-and-milk https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/indian-scientists-de... (b) https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/india/mangoes-and-cow-dung-lead-gujarats-battle-against-the-virus https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/india/mangoes-and-cow-du... (c) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iit-delhi-workshop-looks-for-medical-miracle-in-cow-urine-dung/story-9SNkBj0SDg8pL6fkSqHqVO.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iit-delhi-workshop...
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    This is an excellent review of various drugs that are either discovered in animal fluids (saliva, venom, urine,..) or still cultured in their bodies [3] The Indian left wing's fascination with Cow Urine far outdoes any religious Hindu's veneration for it. Both Hindu and Buddhist scriptures venerate the 5 parts of a cow for religious purposes. That aside traditional cultures the world over - China, Indian, Africa (Nigeria) use the urine (and feces) of various animals as primordial pharmaceutical factories since they lacked the machinery of modern chemistry and drug synthesis. Materia Medica, catalog of plants and animal matter, of ancient medical systems like Ayurveda and TCM contained detailed qualities of the therapeutic properties of the urine of various animals. Even modern medicine has derived drugs like Urokinase from human urine (disgusting) and Premarin from pregnant mare's urine. Urokinase is now made from renal cells cultured in bioreactors but Premarin is still made from mare's urine. Peta is not a fan [2]. Other Animal fluids, horseshoe crab blood famously comes to mind for manufacture of vaccines, are used throughout pharma. See [3] below. Female fertility drugs were first synthesized from the Urine of menopausal nuns [1]. Today the hormone is synthesized in the lab. Generally speaking, it would be bizarre to dismiss the animal (or human) body as a source of pharmaceutical compounds because you don't agree with a sect or religion that worships that animal. [1] https://qz.com/710516/the-strange-story-of-a-fertility-drug-made-with-the-popes-blessing-and-gallons-of-nun-urine/ https://qz.com/710516/the-strange-story-of-a-fertility-drug-... [2] https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-experimentation/animals-used-experimentation-factsheets/premarin-prescription-cruelty/ https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-experimentation... [3] https://alphaomegaalpha.org/pharos/PDFs/2015-1-Bozoghlanian-Butteri.pdf https://alphaomegaalpha.org/pharos/PDFs/2015-1-Bozoghlanian-...
stevespang 6y ago
Why not just give all that money to Alexandra Elbakyan of Sci-Hub ?

Acutely aware of the multiplier effect of this on access and research but are there any possible downsides? Could this cut funding for journals or perhaps create a flood of submissions to top-tier journals? Is there any reason why this might have negative externalities?

johnday 6y ago
I'm not sure why you're hunting for downsides, but... It will create a moat between "worthy" and "unworthy" scientific journals - those which the Indian government is willing to support financially and those which it is not. There may also be some risk that Indian government will give preferential treatment to journals that publish more from their own institutions.
- surgecoach 6y ago
  Would mostly be a good thing but yes could also lead to pushing of journals to be one of those selected
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  You should always always ask how it could go wrong. Popper called this critical rationalism - it is always good to invert and check for downstream effects. We can see "good measured" going horribly wrong and warping society for generations. You point out two excellent ones already (thank you) - the journals that the Indian government does not subscribe will wither and die no matter how good they are. This can lead to a curse of winner takes all. It can also lead to a preferential promotion of accepted and unaccepted theories - similar to what happened in the Soviet Union regarding Lysenkoism vs. Darwin's theories.
webmobdev 6y ago
This is a good move if implemented right. A small danger is that the right-wing government may selfishly promote and finance low quality journals to further its own pseudo-scientific agendas: - "Astrology is the biggest science. It is in fact above science. We should promote it." (a) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/astrology-is-science-says-bjp-mp-nishank/article10929912.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/astrology-is-science-... (b) https://frontline.thehindu.com/the-nation/education/article30222958.ece https://frontline.thehindu.com/the-nation/education/article3... - Government money spent on researching properties of cow dung and cow urine because according to the right-wing, cow-god-mother's excretions have "magical properties". (a) https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/indian-scientists-decry-infuriating-scheme-study-benefits-cow-dung-urine-and-milk https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/indian-scientists-de... (b) https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/india/mangoes-and-cow-dung-lead-gujarats-battle-against-the-virus https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/india/mangoes-and-cow-du... (c) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iit-delhi-workshop-looks-for-medical-miracle-in-cow-urine-dung/story-9SNkBj0SDg8pL6fkSqHqVO.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iit-delhi-workshop...
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  This is an excellent review of various drugs that are either discovered in animal fluids (saliva, venom, urine,..) or still cultured in their bodies [3] The Indian left wing's fascination with Cow Urine far outdoes any religious Hindu's veneration for it. Both Hindu and Buddhist scriptures venerate the 5 parts of a cow for religious purposes. That aside traditional cultures the world over - China, Indian, Africa (Nigeria) use the urine (and feces) of various animals as primordial pharmaceutical factories since they lacked the machinery of modern chemistry and drug synthesis. Materia Medica, catalog of plants and animal matter, of ancient medical systems like Ayurveda and TCM contained detailed qualities of the therapeutic properties of the urine of various animals. Even modern medicine has derived drugs like Urokinase from human urine (disgusting) and Premarin from pregnant mare's urine. Urokinase is now made from renal cells cultured in bioreactors but Premarin is still made from mare's urine. Peta is not a fan [2]. Other Animal fluids, horseshoe crab blood famously comes to mind for manufacture of vaccines, are used throughout pharma. See [3] below. Female fertility drugs were first synthesized from the Urine of menopausal nuns [1]. Today the hormone is synthesized in the lab. Generally speaking, it would be bizarre to dismiss the animal (or human) body as a source of pharmaceutical compounds because you don't agree with a sect or religion that worships that animal. [1] https://qz.com/710516/the-strange-story-of-a-fertility-drug-made-with-the-popes-blessing-and-gallons-of-nun-urine/ https://qz.com/710516/the-strange-story-of-a-fertility-drug-... [2] https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-experimentation/animals-used-experimentation-factsheets/premarin-prescription-cruelty/ https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-experimentation... [3] https://alphaomegaalpha.org/pharos/PDFs/2015-1-Bozoghlanian-Butteri.pdf https://alphaomegaalpha.org/pharos/PDFs/2015-1-Bozoghlanian-...

stevespang 6y ago

Why not just give all that money to Alexandra Elbakyan of Sci-Hub ?