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I do not understand the legal consequences of this. There were whales that paid thousands to have items in the game - those just vanish? Edit: These whales to

I do not understand the legal consequences of this. There were whales that paid thousands to have items in the game - those just vanish? Edit: These whales took the game seriously. "Meet you at the office to discuss something" serious. I expect a class action very quickly. Disclosure: worked at zynga.

extrememacaroni 6y ago
I too think it's preposterous that it's somehow okay for companies to simply make disappear things you've bought/spent money on/anything like that. This is the main reason I avoid games like this. It's just a trap, nothing keeps the developer from retiring the game whenever it feels like, nothing keeps the developer from releasing an update that completely changes how the game plays. If you like a game now, next week they can rebalance it and introduce microtransactions and that's... perfectly okay it seems?
- trash3 6y ago
  Reminds me of me of the Green Kayle skin I bought in League of Legends almost a decade ago. Pricks changed the base design of the model and did so for the paid skin as well.
  - jabl 6y ago
    Seems to be a common pattern. Eg in world of tanks/warships, there are "premium" tanks/ships you can buy for money and which are slightly better than the free vehicles at the same tier. While they are decent enough to not reduce the specs of stuff people have paid for, what they do is boost other vehicles and introduce new ones, which over time has the same effect.
Santosh83 6y ago
If you don't pay for physical products or tangible/useful services, then that's what happens. But look at it the bright side. The kind of people who burn cash on games would have instead thrown them on drugs, cigarettes, online gambling, or something even worse had these avenues never existed.
- Retric 6y ago
  Many people where caught unawares by video game addiction. Cultures convey the dangers of drugs and gambling quite effectively allowing many susceptible people to avoid them, but IAP where a very new thing.
- Bakary 6y ago
  The trump card of video game addiction is accessibility (in a sense online gambling and game addiction are functionally the same) It's not easy to relinquish access to a computer and phone these days
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    These kinds of games make it worse by using real-time timers (and real-life money). I tend to get quite addicted to video games, but gave up on even trying those with these kinds of mechanics, as the reward/(danger+cost) ratio is just too bad.
Aeolun 6y ago
Since they weren’t able to buy them any more since November it looks like they gave people at least a month to enjoy their purchases.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mst 6y ago
The question is who would they sue. I mean, the process seems to've been roughly - Apple decided not to support Flash on mobile - Everybody else decided to try and deprecate Flash as a browser plugin - Adobe EOLed Flash - Facebook EOLed support for Flash games - Zynga EOLed FarmVille "Whose fault this actually is" seems tricky enough to determine morally, let alone legally.
- sigotirandolas 6y ago
  Morally, shouldn't it clearly be Zynga's fault, since the game was designed so that it only runs on top of a technology stack that can not be replicated by third parties and only they are technically capable of changing this design?
  - m1gu3l 6y ago
    Software developers now have a moral obligation to make sure their code is ready to run on any future tech stack? Sounds .... not correct.
    - giancarlostoro 6y ago
      Space Cadet for Windows that we all miss would like to have a word....
    - iamacyborg 6y ago
      If they sell thousands of dollars worth of digital items then yes, they should have a moral obligation to support those customers. Particularly given the murky exploitative psychological tricks employed by these games to get customers in the first place.
      - m1gu3l 6y ago
        If the EULA says the value of said digital items is zero (as hinted at in some comment further up) then I can agree that we disagree.
patrec 6y ago
On the assumption that almost everyone would be better without Farmville in their lives and that such a loss might at least get some of them to reconsider the wisdom of their behavior, there would be a certain irony if such a class action suit were to be successful.
- willis936 6y ago
  To play devil’s advocate: addiction fills a void in an unfulfilling life. Arguably computer games are better than drugs and the root cause of the sad life is not the addictive substance. All that said, I shed no tears for any comeuppance that gets delivered to those who willfully profit off of the misfortune of others.
  - carlivar 6y ago
    Big Tech optimizing dopamine addiction makes your drugs analogy quite accurate.
    - weare138 6y ago
      Unfortunately this predates 'big tech'. The real travesty of the big tech era is that instead of abandoning these antiquated profit driven ideals and improving society it just embraced them to an unimaginable degree while feeding us the same old lie. We're sold the future but in most ways still live in the past.
  - dehrmann 6y ago
    I don't think that these games are actually addicting. Habit-forming, for sure, but the way people lose interest makes me think it's something else.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - pawelmurias 6y ago
      Do you think gambling is not addictive? There is very little difference.
lacker 6y ago
Plenty of games have shut down after selling virtual goods. FarmVille did not invent the concept of selling virtual things for real money. I doubt a lawsuit will go anywhere.
bob33212 6y ago
If they read the user agreement they would see that the cash value of those items was zero. It is very similar to frequent flyer miles. Their value is zero. Delta can make 1 billion miles worth a diet soda tomorrow if they want.
fractionalhare 6y ago
> "Meet you at the office to discuss something" serious. Sorry, is this a reference to something?
- sgpl 6y ago
  I think the original post is referring to the fact that they worked at zynga and as per their experience 'whales' met with or wanted to meet with zynga staff to discuss aspects of the game with zynga staff.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> There were whales that paid thousands to have items in the game - those just vanish? Yup. > These whales took the game seriously. "Meet you at the office to discuss something" serious. I expect a class action very quickly. Very sure the terms of sale for those items made them contingent on the continuation of the service, which was expressly in Zynga’s discretion. Selling added privileges related to another service that only survive as long as the base service is offered is fairly routine; there's nothing novel happening here, even prior to online games with premium items (of which this is not the first to shut down, anyhow.)
- jgalt212 6y ago
  this is, in a nutshell, why I never "buy' ebooks.
  - markus_zhang 6y ago
    They are good if they are in plain pdf format though.
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      No, unless you plan to print them out, PDF is atrocious for ebooks.
  - Marqin 6y ago
    Why not? When you buy ebooks you can download the PDF and even print it for yourself as backup.
    - 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
      Oh. Why not offer non DRM formats to begin with because I am paying equal to or more than the paperback price of a book and not some bullshit license and shit. OP is saying he/she refuses to accept the whole renting/licensing shenanigans in ebooks. If Apple can sell you a non DRM mp3 for $.99 a pop, why the fuck does it need DRM for an eBook. ? Your only option is to either buy a paperback or pirate and downloading on kindle and then finding a PDF and then printing it should not happen to a paying customer.
Jach 6y ago
What did you do at Zynga? It's surprising to think any gamer let alone an employee at a game studio (let alone a studio where whale hunting is the dominant business model) would think this is a new phenomenon and be confused in any way about what happens next. But anyway, nothing happens -- the servers shut down, the game is no more, no one gets sued. I don't even have to go find the EULA to be sure that it contains a clause about waiving class action rights in case anyone wanted to try. FarmVille isn't the first game and won't be the last game to do this. If anything, it's rather refreshing to see a non-gacha game in the long chain of shutdowns.
kens 6y ago
I figured someone in this thread should look at the terms of service. It says that Zynga owns the items and you're allowed to use them while the service is offered (5). It also says that their maximum liability is the amount you paid in the past 180 days (14). They make no promises or guarantees that the service will always be available and may withdraw services for business or operational needs (13). Specifically, it says "you do not own any Virtual Items that you obtained through our Services, regardless of whether you “earned” those Virtual Items or “purchased” them. Your Account and any related Virtual Items are owned by Zynga. Zynga gives you a limited license and right to use your Account and the related Virtual Items while we offer the Services." https://www.zynga.com/legal/terms-of-service https://www.zynga.com/legal/terms-of-service
- wpietri 6y ago
  Good find. I think it's worth comparing with the Edison Phonographic Cylinder EULA: https://maisonbisson.com/post/edison-phonograph-eula/ https://maisonbisson.com/post/edison-phonograph-eula/ In spirit, it's similar: "We sold you a thing, but it's not really yours." Eventually, that changed, presumably because people resented not actually owning the things that they reasonably believe they owned. It'll be interesting to see how this evolves. This is clearly different, in that "purchased" items only really exist on the Zynga servers; the burdens fall differently. But in the coming decades I wouldn't be surprised to see some consumer protection laws around virtual purchases.
darkerside 6y ago
The Lifecycle of Software Objects by Ted Chiang explores this topic very well

extrememacaroni 6y ago

I too think it's preposterous that it's somehow okay for companies to simply make disappear things you've bought/spent money on/anything like that. This is the main reason I avoid games like this. It's just a trap, nothing keeps the developer from retiring the game whenever it feels like, nothing keeps the developer from releasing an update that completely changes how the game plays. If you like a game now, next week they can rebalance it and introduce microtransactions and that's... perfectly okay it seems?

trash3 6y ago
Reminds me of me of the Green Kayle skin I bought in League of Legends almost a decade ago. Pricks changed the base design of the model and did so for the paid skin as well.
- jabl 6y ago
  Seems to be a common pattern. Eg in world of tanks/warships, there are "premium" tanks/ships you can buy for money and which are slightly better than the free vehicles at the same tier. While they are decent enough to not reduce the specs of stuff people have paid for, what they do is boost other vehicles and introduce new ones, which over time has the same effect.

Santosh83 6y ago

If you don't pay for physical products or tangible/useful services, then that's what happens. But look at it the bright side. The kind of people who burn cash on games would have instead thrown them on drugs, cigarettes, online gambling, or something even worse had these avenues never existed.

Retric 6y ago
Many people where caught unawares by video game addiction. Cultures convey the dangers of drugs and gambling quite effectively allowing many susceptible people to avoid them, but IAP where a very new thing.
Bakary 6y ago
The trump card of video game addiction is accessibility (in a sense online gambling and game addiction are functionally the same) It's not easy to relinquish access to a computer and phone these days
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  These kinds of games make it worse by using real-time timers (and real-life money). I tend to get quite addicted to video games, but gave up on even trying those with these kinds of mechanics, as the reward/(danger+cost) ratio is just too bad.

Aeolun 6y ago

Since they weren’t able to buy them any more since November it looks like they gave people at least a month to enjoy their purchases.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mst 6y ago

The question is who would they sue. I mean, the process seems to've been roughly - Apple decided not to support Flash on mobile - Everybody else decided to try and deprecate Flash as a browser plugin - Adobe EOLed Flash - Facebook EOLed support for Flash games - Zynga EOLed FarmVille "Whose fault this actually is" seems tricky enough to determine morally, let alone legally.

sigotirandolas 6y ago
Morally, shouldn't it clearly be Zynga's fault, since the game was designed so that it only runs on top of a technology stack that can not be replicated by third parties and only they are technically capable of changing this design?
- m1gu3l 6y ago
  Software developers now have a moral obligation to make sure their code is ready to run on any future tech stack? Sounds .... not correct.
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    Space Cadet for Windows that we all miss would like to have a word....
  - iamacyborg 6y ago
    If they sell thousands of dollars worth of digital items then yes, they should have a moral obligation to support those customers. Particularly given the murky exploitative psychological tricks employed by these games to get customers in the first place.
    - m1gu3l 6y ago
      If the EULA says the value of said digital items is zero (as hinted at in some comment further up) then I can agree that we disagree.

patrec 6y ago

On the assumption that almost everyone would be better without Farmville in their lives and that such a loss might at least get some of them to reconsider the wisdom of their behavior, there would be a certain irony if such a class action suit were to be successful.

willis936 6y ago
To play devil’s advocate: addiction fills a void in an unfulfilling life. Arguably computer games are better than drugs and the root cause of the sad life is not the addictive substance. All that said, I shed no tears for any comeuppance that gets delivered to those who willfully profit off of the misfortune of others.
- carlivar 6y ago
  Big Tech optimizing dopamine addiction makes your drugs analogy quite accurate.
  - weare138 6y ago
    Unfortunately this predates 'big tech'. The real travesty of the big tech era is that instead of abandoning these antiquated profit driven ideals and improving society it just embraced them to an unimaginable degree while feeding us the same old lie. We're sold the future but in most ways still live in the past.
- dehrmann 6y ago
  I don't think that these games are actually addicting. Habit-forming, for sure, but the way people lose interest makes me think it's something else.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pawelmurias 6y ago
    Do you think gambling is not addictive? There is very little difference.

lacker 6y ago

Plenty of games have shut down after selling virtual goods. FarmVille did not invent the concept of selling virtual things for real money. I doubt a lawsuit will go anywhere.

bob33212 6y ago

If they read the user agreement they would see that the cash value of those items was zero. It is very similar to frequent flyer miles. Their value is zero. Delta can make 1 billion miles worth a diet soda tomorrow if they want.

fractionalhare 6y ago

> "Meet you at the office to discuss something" serious. Sorry, is this a reference to something?

sgpl 6y ago
I think the original post is referring to the fact that they worked at zynga and as per their experience 'whales' met with or wanted to meet with zynga staff to discuss aspects of the game with zynga staff.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> There were whales that paid thousands to have items in the game - those just vanish? Yup. > These whales took the game seriously. "Meet you at the office to discuss something" serious. I expect a class action very quickly. Very sure the terms of sale for those items made them contingent on the continuation of the service, which was expressly in Zynga’s discretion. Selling added privileges related to another service that only survive as long as the base service is offered is fairly routine; there's nothing novel happening here, even prior to online games with premium items (of which this is not the first to shut down, anyhow.)

jgalt212 6y ago
this is, in a nutshell, why I never "buy' ebooks.
- markus_zhang 6y ago
  They are good if they are in plain pdf format though.
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    No, unless you plan to print them out, PDF is atrocious for ebooks.
- Marqin 6y ago
  Why not? When you buy ebooks you can download the PDF and even print it for yourself as backup.
  - 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
    Oh. Why not offer non DRM formats to begin with because I am paying equal to or more than the paperback price of a book and not some bullshit license and shit. OP is saying he/she refuses to accept the whole renting/licensing shenanigans in ebooks. If Apple can sell you a non DRM mp3 for $.99 a pop, why the fuck does it need DRM for an eBook. ? Your only option is to either buy a paperback or pirate and downloading on kindle and then finding a PDF and then printing it should not happen to a paying customer.

Jach 6y ago

What did you do at Zynga? It's surprising to think any gamer let alone an employee at a game studio (let alone a studio where whale hunting is the dominant business model) would think this is a new phenomenon and be confused in any way about what happens next. But anyway, nothing happens -- the servers shut down, the game is no more, no one gets sued. I don't even have to go find the EULA to be sure that it contains a clause about waiving class action rights in case anyone wanted to try. FarmVille isn't the first game and won't be the last game to do this. If anything, it's rather refreshing to see a non-gacha game in the long chain of shutdowns.

kens 6y ago

I figured someone in this thread should look at the terms of service. It says that Zynga owns the items and you're allowed to use them while the service is offered (5). It also says that their maximum liability is the amount you paid in the past 180 days (14). They make no promises or guarantees that the service will always be available and may withdraw services for business or operational needs (13). Specifically, it says "you do not own any Virtual Items that you obtained through our Services, regardless of whether you “earned” those Virtual Items or “purchased” them. Your Account and any related Virtual Items are owned by Zynga. Zynga gives you a limited license and right to use your Account and the related Virtual Items while we offer the Services." https://www.zynga.com/legal/terms-of-service https://www.zynga.com/legal/terms-of-service

wpietri 6y ago
Good find. I think it's worth comparing with the Edison Phonographic Cylinder EULA: https://maisonbisson.com/post/edison-phonograph-eula/ https://maisonbisson.com/post/edison-phonograph-eula/ In spirit, it's similar: "We sold you a thing, but it's not really yours." Eventually, that changed, presumably because people resented not actually owning the things that they reasonably believe they owned. It'll be interesting to see how this evolves. This is clearly different, in that "purchased" items only really exist on the Zynga servers; the burdens fall differently. But in the coming decades I wouldn't be surprised to see some consumer protection laws around virtual purchases.

darkerside 6y ago

The Lifecycle of Software Objects by Ted Chiang explores this topic very well