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Instead of downvoting, google the financial statements and see for yourself. You are supporting bureaucracy/infra/conferences. All of which would not exist wit

by tzl 6y ago

Instead of downvoting, google the financial statements and see for yourself. You are supporting bureaucracy/infra/conferences. All of which would not exist without python.tar.gz.

dmw_ng 6y ago
Going by https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ , 75% are running the annual conference, 12.6% grants open to _anyone_, and 3.8% maintaining a central registry primarily staffed by volunteers, and I imagine paying for quite a sizeable set of origin servers at this stage. As for the PyCon expenditure, it's certainly the kind of thing I'd never attend, but there can be no doubt the existence of the conference has strengthened and grown Python's user base, and it is open to everyone should they wish to attend. Meanwhile, $97k annual to operate a package registry with literally millions of downloads per month that tens of thousands of companies depend on sounds like an amazing bargain to me.
- incongruity 6y ago
  Speaking as someone who had a core role in organizing PyCon US a decade+ ago and was active with the PSF for some time, I’ve never seen an organization more dedicated to good stewardship and inclusiveness at scale. I’m sure there are other great examples but the PSF was always commendable. PyCon was always meant to be affordable for as many people as it could be - via low prices and financial aid for many. Those conferences helped create many of the relationships that drove key parts of the Python ecosystem. In addition, there are/were typically dedicated time for code sprints following the main conference. Important work happened there, often for key parts of the Python codebase or key libraries. While the budget numbers don’t say explicitly “development support” people shouldn’t presume PyCon does nothing for the language itself. Open Source conferences are not like commercial conferences. It’s community driven rather than marketing driven. That difference matters. It was a smaller world when I was involved but it was and still is something special.
- marmaduke 6y ago
  > literally millions of downloads per month I was surprised it would be so low given all the Dockerfiles building in CI systems everywhere and apparently from https://pypistats.org/top https://pypistats.org/top It looks like tens of millions per day a billions per month edit which is ~115 downloads per second, which is nothing a beefy VM couldn’t handle.
  - dmw_ng 6y ago
    BigQuery: #standardSQL SELECT EXTRACT(HOUR FROM timestamp) hour, COUNT(*) AS num_downloads FROM `the-psf.pypi.file_downloads` WHERE DATE(timestamp) BETWEEN DATE_SUB(CURRENT_DATE(), INTERVAL 30 DAY) AND CURRENT_DATE() GROUP BY hour ORDER BY num_downloads Gives us 6.956 billion downloads in the past 30 days With hour 15 clocking in at around 2,964 requests/sec -- mean. This is still not representative of peak instantaneous traffic, which I'd hazard a guess is somewhere closer to 10x that number. Now factor in the 'usual' case where the CDN absorbs 70% of this, and you're still left with a service that is non-trivial to run and support 24/7. PyPi manages to only have a few small downtimes per year.
    - marmaduke 6y ago
      Hadn’t thought to look up more precise numbers, and the comment on CDN is good one. It’s an example of where smart choices in the client (pip) could keep the backend (PyPI) scalable.
- wrycoder 6y ago
  PyCon makes a sizeable profit, which supports the staff and grantmaking activities of the PSF.
nerdponx 6y ago
Here's the 2020 financial statement: https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ Total expenses for 2019 were a bit under $3.7m. "Program service expenses" were $2.6m, about 70% of total expenses. Of this $2.2m, 75.3% was spent on PyCon. So overall, around 53% of PSF spending in 2020 went to PyCon ($1.9m). In 2018, it was around 57%. The next-biggest expense was staffing ($694k), at around 19% in 2019.
oefrha 6y ago
PyCon totally does affect python.tar.gz. https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint (and that link doesn’t capture the PEPs hashed out among other things.) Also, why the hell make a new account for each comment?

by tzl 6y ago

Instead of downvoting, google the financial statements and see for yourself. You are supporting bureaucracy/infra/conferences. All of which would not exist without python.tar.gz.

dmw_ng 6y ago

Going by https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ , 75% are running the annual conference, 12.6% grants open to _anyone_, and 3.8% maintaining a central registry primarily staffed by volunteers, and I imagine paying for quite a sizeable set of origin servers at this stage. As for the PyCon expenditure, it's certainly the kind of thing I'd never attend, but there can be no doubt the existence of the conference has strengthened and grown Python's user base, and it is open to everyone should they wish to attend. Meanwhile, $97k annual to operate a package registry with literally millions of downloads per month that tens of thousands of companies depend on sounds like an amazing bargain to me.

incongruity 6y ago
Speaking as someone who had a core role in organizing PyCon US a decade+ ago and was active with the PSF for some time, I’ve never seen an organization more dedicated to good stewardship and inclusiveness at scale. I’m sure there are other great examples but the PSF was always commendable. PyCon was always meant to be affordable for as many people as it could be - via low prices and financial aid for many. Those conferences helped create many of the relationships that drove key parts of the Python ecosystem. In addition, there are/were typically dedicated time for code sprints following the main conference. Important work happened there, often for key parts of the Python codebase or key libraries. While the budget numbers don’t say explicitly “development support” people shouldn’t presume PyCon does nothing for the language itself. Open Source conferences are not like commercial conferences. It’s community driven rather than marketing driven. That difference matters. It was a smaller world when I was involved but it was and still is something special.
marmaduke 6y ago
> literally millions of downloads per month I was surprised it would be so low given all the Dockerfiles building in CI systems everywhere and apparently from https://pypistats.org/top https://pypistats.org/top It looks like tens of millions per day a billions per month edit which is ~115 downloads per second, which is nothing a beefy VM couldn’t handle.
- dmw_ng 6y ago
  BigQuery: #standardSQL SELECT EXTRACT(HOUR FROM timestamp) hour, COUNT(*) AS num_downloads FROM `the-psf.pypi.file_downloads` WHERE DATE(timestamp) BETWEEN DATE_SUB(CURRENT_DATE(), INTERVAL 30 DAY) AND CURRENT_DATE() GROUP BY hour ORDER BY num_downloads Gives us 6.956 billion downloads in the past 30 days With hour 15 clocking in at around 2,964 requests/sec -- mean. This is still not representative of peak instantaneous traffic, which I'd hazard a guess is somewhere closer to 10x that number. Now factor in the 'usual' case where the CDN absorbs 70% of this, and you're still left with a service that is non-trivial to run and support 24/7. PyPi manages to only have a few small downtimes per year.
  - marmaduke 6y ago
    Hadn’t thought to look up more precise numbers, and the comment on CDN is good one. It’s an example of where smart choices in the client (pip) could keep the backend (PyPI) scalable.
wrycoder 6y ago
PyCon makes a sizeable profit, which supports the staff and grantmaking activities of the PSF.

nerdponx 6y ago

Here's the 2020 financial statement: https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ Total expenses for 2019 were a bit under $3.7m. "Program service expenses" were $2.6m, about 70% of total expenses. Of this $2.2m, 75.3% was spent on PyCon. So overall, around 53% of PSF spending in 2020 went to PyCon ($1.9m). In 2018, it was around 57%. The next-biggest expense was staffing ($694k), at around 19% in 2019.

oefrha 6y ago

PyCon totally does affect python.tar.gz. https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint (and that link doesn’t capture the PEPs hashed out among other things.) Also, why the hell make a new account for each comment?