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That may be true, but it's not a solution. Personally, I want to live in a world where law enforcement is the ally, not the enemy. And if this is not possible,

That may be true, but it's not a solution. Personally, I want to live in a world where law enforcement is the ally, not the enemy. And if this is not possible, that's the bigger problem.

pyre 15y ago
Law enforcement is tasked with enforcing the laws. Until there are no laws on the books that you disagree with or that could be used to suppress you, then you can never claim them as an ally. More like a fair-weather friend.
ck2 15y ago
Think of every other job in the world where people cut corners and slack and get corrupt. Everyone from the guy who has to flip burgers to brain surgeons. Now imagine them with the ability to completely screw up your life at their whim, from arrest to prosecution to judging. Law enforcement is a massive, for-profit industry. Everyone is out to improve their arrest/prosecution record. If you can't afford to defend yourself, you are an easy target. Even if you win, you still lose for having to go through the process.
jdietrich 15y ago
The job of law enforcement is to prevent crime, to detain criminal suspects and to gather evidence. If the police are talking to you then by definition they are trying to incriminate someone, that's their job. Police officers are obliged to use any legal means available to obtain evidence - anything less would be negligence. As they are obliged by law to tell you, anything you say or do can be held against you in a court of law. You have a legal right not to incriminate yourself, but you don't have the right to un-incriminate yourself in hindsight, even if you incriminated yourself only inadvertently. If you have evidence that proves you did not commit a criminal offence, then it is in your best interest to use your right to legal representation to ensure that you give that evidence as clearly as possible and do not say anything that could undermine that evidence. Not talking to cops is a basic principle of privacy, like shredding your credit card bills or using a password on your e-mail account. Once information is out there, you can't get it back, so it's your duty to preserve it at all costs. If talking to the cops made sense, the cops would be doing a lousy job.
- danssig 15y ago
  >If talking to the cops made sense, the cops would be doing a lousy job. This is a poor attitude and probably explains why dealing with police in the US is such a big deal. It doesn't have to be like this, and isn't in a lot of other countries.
  - jdietrich 15y ago
    It's like that in every country on earth, more so in most countries other than the US. Much of South America still operates under Napoleonic law in which there is a presumption of guilt. I'm British and would never dream of speaking to a police officer anywhere in Europe without legal representation. American police are slightly more corrupt than the first-world average and sentencing is unusually punitive (especially for drug offences), but by global standards the US legal system isn't exceptionally bad. How could we possibly architect a legal system in which it doesn't make sense to speak to a lawyer before giving evidence? Unless we massively simplify the law and train every single citizen in the law to a fairly high standard, the benefit of representation will persist. The system recognises this and enshrines the right to legal representation.
    - danssig 15y ago
      >It's like that in every country on earth, more so in most countries other than the US. This claim is even more extraordinary than the first. I'm living in Switzerland and I can tell you dealing with the cops is not a problem here because they use their heads (instead of just trying to close a case). Of course if they think you're a scum bag then you won't get the benefit of the doubt, but I can understand that. >but by global standards the US legal system isn't exceptionally bad. To be honest, I would trust the US system more than I would the UK system because at least if something stupid happens I would expect to be able to sue someone for lots of cash. The UK could just D-notice me away.
- Produce 15y ago
  "The job of law enforcement is to prevent crime, to detain criminal suspects and to gather evidence." Unfortunately, the job of law enforcement is in fact to enforce the law. The same law which is written by people you don't know and are not asked your opinion on. The same law which is influenced by people richer and more connected than you. A government consists of a group of people who threaten other people with violence (through the police) when they do not agree with their actions. The only way to have real justice is to not have a police force, or a government, for that matter.
VladRussian 15y ago
>I want to live in a world where law enforcement is the ally, not the enemy. well, we know that the law enforcement is ally to some, it is just not to you or to me. Everybody wants to have the Power on their side, just not everybody can by definition.
matwood 15y ago
Personally, I want to live in a world where law enforcement is the ally, not the enemy. I would like that too, the problem is that because a cop wields so much power one bad apple really does ruin the bunch. As a citizen you never know if you're going to get the cop who does his job well and isn't out to get people or the cop who is drunk with power and can't wait to flex on someone.

That may be true, but it's not a solution. Personally, I want to live in a world where law enforcement is the ally, not the enemy. And if this is not possible, that's the bigger problem.

pyre 15y ago

Law enforcement is tasked with enforcing the laws. Until there are no laws on the books that you disagree with or that could be used to suppress you, then you can never claim them as an ally. More like a fair-weather friend.

ck2 15y ago

Think of every other job in the world where people cut corners and slack and get corrupt. Everyone from the guy who has to flip burgers to brain surgeons. Now imagine them with the ability to completely screw up your life at their whim, from arrest to prosecution to judging. Law enforcement is a massive, for-profit industry. Everyone is out to improve their arrest/prosecution record. If you can't afford to defend yourself, you are an easy target. Even if you win, you still lose for having to go through the process.

jdietrich 15y ago

The job of law enforcement is to prevent crime, to detain criminal suspects and to gather evidence. If the police are talking to you then by definition they are trying to incriminate someone, that's their job. Police officers are obliged to use any legal means available to obtain evidence - anything less would be negligence. As they are obliged by law to tell you, anything you say or do can be held against you in a court of law. You have a legal right not to incriminate yourself, but you don't have the right to un-incriminate yourself in hindsight, even if you incriminated yourself only inadvertently. If you have evidence that proves you did not commit a criminal offence, then it is in your best interest to use your right to legal representation to ensure that you give that evidence as clearly as possible and do not say anything that could undermine that evidence. Not talking to cops is a basic principle of privacy, like shredding your credit card bills or using a password on your e-mail account. Once information is out there, you can't get it back, so it's your duty to preserve it at all costs. If talking to the cops made sense, the cops would be doing a lousy job.

danssig 15y ago
>If talking to the cops made sense, the cops would be doing a lousy job. This is a poor attitude and probably explains why dealing with police in the US is such a big deal. It doesn't have to be like this, and isn't in a lot of other countries.
- jdietrich 15y ago
  It's like that in every country on earth, more so in most countries other than the US. Much of South America still operates under Napoleonic law in which there is a presumption of guilt. I'm British and would never dream of speaking to a police officer anywhere in Europe without legal representation. American police are slightly more corrupt than the first-world average and sentencing is unusually punitive (especially for drug offences), but by global standards the US legal system isn't exceptionally bad. How could we possibly architect a legal system in which it doesn't make sense to speak to a lawyer before giving evidence? Unless we massively simplify the law and train every single citizen in the law to a fairly high standard, the benefit of representation will persist. The system recognises this and enshrines the right to legal representation.
  - danssig 15y ago
    >It's like that in every country on earth, more so in most countries other than the US. This claim is even more extraordinary than the first. I'm living in Switzerland and I can tell you dealing with the cops is not a problem here because they use their heads (instead of just trying to close a case). Of course if they think you're a scum bag then you won't get the benefit of the doubt, but I can understand that. >but by global standards the US legal system isn't exceptionally bad. To be honest, I would trust the US system more than I would the UK system because at least if something stupid happens I would expect to be able to sue someone for lots of cash. The UK could just D-notice me away.
Produce 15y ago
"The job of law enforcement is to prevent crime, to detain criminal suspects and to gather evidence." Unfortunately, the job of law enforcement is in fact to enforce the law. The same law which is written by people you don't know and are not asked your opinion on. The same law which is influenced by people richer and more connected than you. A government consists of a group of people who threaten other people with violence (through the police) when they do not agree with their actions. The only way to have real justice is to not have a police force, or a government, for that matter.

VladRussian 15y ago

>I want to live in a world where law enforcement is the ally, not the enemy. well, we know that the law enforcement is ally to some, it is just not to you or to me. Everybody wants to have the Power on their side, just not everybody can by definition.

matwood 15y ago

Personally, I want to live in a world where law enforcement is the ally, not the enemy. I would like that too, the problem is that because a cop wields so much power one bad apple really does ruin the bunch. As a citizen you never know if you're going to get the cop who does his job well and isn't out to get people or the cop who is drunk with power and can't wait to flex on someone.