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AFAIK pypy improvements also led to cpython compact dictionaries (which led to dictionaries being ordered) and many many cpython performance improvements (the m

AFAIK pypy improvements also led to cpython compact dictionaries (which led to dictionaries being ordered) and many many cpython performance improvements (the most recent one being LOAD_ATTR caching, with huge performance gains). I wonder if sponsoring pypy instead of the PSF might be a way for people that want "a focus on performance improvements, instead of fancy features" to vote with their wallets

ngfellow 6y ago
It is worth noting that none of the PSF donations arrive at core development anyway. They support the bureaucracy and the infrastructure. python.tar.gz would be exactly the same if the donations were zero. All the more reason to switch to donating PyPy.
- tzl 6y ago
  Instead of downvoting, google the financial statements and see for yourself. You are supporting bureaucracy/infra/conferences. All of which would not exist without python.tar.gz.
  - dmw_ng 6y ago
    Going by https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ , 75% are running the annual conference, 12.6% grants open to _anyone_, and 3.8% maintaining a central registry primarily staffed by volunteers, and I imagine paying for quite a sizeable set of origin servers at this stage. As for the PyCon expenditure, it's certainly the kind of thing I'd never attend, but there can be no doubt the existence of the conference has strengthened and grown Python's user base, and it is open to everyone should they wish to attend. Meanwhile, $97k annual to operate a package registry with literally millions of downloads per month that tens of thousands of companies depend on sounds like an amazing bargain to me.
    - incongruity 6y ago
      Speaking as someone who had a core role in organizing PyCon US a decade+ ago and was active with the PSF for some time, I’ve never seen an organization more dedicated to good stewardship and inclusiveness at scale. I’m sure there are other great examples but the PSF was always commendable. PyCon was always meant to be affordable for as many people as it could be - via low prices and financial aid for many. Those conferences helped create many of the relationships that drove key parts of the Python ecosystem. In addition, there are/were typically dedicated time for code sprints following the main conference. Important work happened there, often for key parts of the Python codebase or key libraries. While the budget numbers don’t say explicitly “development support” people shouldn’t presume PyCon does nothing for the language itself. Open Source conferences are not like commercial conferences. It’s community driven rather than marketing driven. That difference matters. It was a smaller world when I was involved but it was and still is something special.
    - marmaduke 6y ago
      > literally millions of downloads per month I was surprised it would be so low given all the Dockerfiles building in CI systems everywhere and apparently from https://pypistats.org/top https://pypistats.org/top It looks like tens of millions per day a billions per month edit which is ~115 downloads per second, which is nothing a beefy VM couldn’t handle.
      - dmw_ng 6y ago
        BigQuery: #standardSQL SELECT EXTRACT(HOUR FROM timestamp) hour, COUNT(*) AS num_downloads FROM `the-psf.pypi.file_downloads` WHERE DATE(timestamp) BETWEEN DATE_SUB(CURRENT_DATE(), INTERVAL 30 DAY) AND CURRENT_DATE() GROUP BY hour ORDER BY num_downloads Gives us 6.956 billion downloads in the past 30 days With hour 15 clocking in at around 2,964 requests/sec -- mean. This is still not representative of peak instantaneous traffic, which I'd hazard a guess is somewhere closer to 10x that number. Now factor in the 'usual' case where the CDN absorbs 70% of this, and you're still left with a service that is non-trivial to run and support 24/7. PyPi manages to only have a few small downtimes per year.
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    Here's the 2020 financial statement: https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ Total expenses for 2019 were a bit under $3.7m. "Program service expenses" were $2.6m, about 70% of total expenses. Of this $2.2m, 75.3% was spent on PyCon. So overall, around 53% of PSF spending in 2020 went to PyCon ($1.9m). In 2018, it was around 57%. The next-biggest expense was staffing ($694k), at around 19% in 2019.
  - oefrha 6y ago
    PyCon totally does affect python.tar.gz. https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint (and that link doesn’t capture the PEPs hashed out among other things.) Also, why the hell make a new account for each comment?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

ngfellow 6y ago

It is worth noting that none of the PSF donations arrive at core development anyway. They support the bureaucracy and the infrastructure. python.tar.gz would be exactly the same if the donations were zero. All the more reason to switch to donating PyPy.

tzl 6y ago
Instead of downvoting, google the financial statements and see for yourself. You are supporting bureaucracy/infra/conferences. All of which would not exist without python.tar.gz.
- dmw_ng 6y ago
  Going by https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ , 75% are running the annual conference, 12.6% grants open to _anyone_, and 3.8% maintaining a central registry primarily staffed by volunteers, and I imagine paying for quite a sizeable set of origin servers at this stage. As for the PyCon expenditure, it's certainly the kind of thing I'd never attend, but there can be no doubt the existence of the conference has strengthened and grown Python's user base, and it is open to everyone should they wish to attend. Meanwhile, $97k annual to operate a package registry with literally millions of downloads per month that tens of thousands of companies depend on sounds like an amazing bargain to me.
  - incongruity 6y ago
    Speaking as someone who had a core role in organizing PyCon US a decade+ ago and was active with the PSF for some time, I’ve never seen an organization more dedicated to good stewardship and inclusiveness at scale. I’m sure there are other great examples but the PSF was always commendable. PyCon was always meant to be affordable for as many people as it could be - via low prices and financial aid for many. Those conferences helped create many of the relationships that drove key parts of the Python ecosystem. In addition, there are/were typically dedicated time for code sprints following the main conference. Important work happened there, often for key parts of the Python codebase or key libraries. While the budget numbers don’t say explicitly “development support” people shouldn’t presume PyCon does nothing for the language itself. Open Source conferences are not like commercial conferences. It’s community driven rather than marketing driven. That difference matters. It was a smaller world when I was involved but it was and still is something special.
  - marmaduke 6y ago
    > literally millions of downloads per month I was surprised it would be so low given all the Dockerfiles building in CI systems everywhere and apparently from https://pypistats.org/top https://pypistats.org/top It looks like tens of millions per day a billions per month edit which is ~115 downloads per second, which is nothing a beefy VM couldn’t handle.
    - dmw_ng 6y ago
      BigQuery: #standardSQL SELECT EXTRACT(HOUR FROM timestamp) hour, COUNT(*) AS num_downloads FROM `the-psf.pypi.file_downloads` WHERE DATE(timestamp) BETWEEN DATE_SUB(CURRENT_DATE(), INTERVAL 30 DAY) AND CURRENT_DATE() GROUP BY hour ORDER BY num_downloads Gives us 6.956 billion downloads in the past 30 days With hour 15 clocking in at around 2,964 requests/sec -- mean. This is still not representative of peak instantaneous traffic, which I'd hazard a guess is somewhere closer to 10x that number. Now factor in the 'usual' case where the CDN absorbs 70% of this, and you're still left with a service that is non-trivial to run and support 24/7. PyPi manages to only have a few small downtimes per year.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  Here's the 2020 financial statement: https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ https://www.python.org/psf/annual-report/2020/ Total expenses for 2019 were a bit under $3.7m. "Program service expenses" were $2.6m, about 70% of total expenses. Of this $2.2m, 75.3% was spent on PyCon. So overall, around 53% of PSF spending in 2020 went to PyCon ($1.9m). In 2018, it was around 57%. The next-biggest expense was staffing ($694k), at around 19% in 2019.
- oefrha 6y ago
  PyCon totally does affect python.tar.gz. https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=+label%3Asprint (and that link doesn’t capture the PEPs hashed out among other things.) Also, why the hell make a new account for each comment?
deleted 6y ago
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