11 ms·

What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

46 points by wx196 6y ago

brudgers 6y ago
A description of the Coasting system at Park Tool, https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/shimano-coasting-system https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/shimano-coastin...
- im3w1l 6y ago
  It was very surprising to see them discuss for so long without even mentioning what it the system is. Maybe shifting gears based on speed is simply a bad idea?
- jablan 6y ago
  Thanks, although I am hobbyist bike mechanic, I never heard of Coasting before. Frankly, doesn't sound very attractive - a complicated (proprietary) automatic gear system relying on functioning (proprietary) front hub dynamo... All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears.
  - laputan_machine 6y ago
    Agreed, the main reason for low cycling uptake in some countries is because it is utterly terrifying. I'm a seasoned cyclist in the UK; there are some roads I just will not cycle on because it is too dangerous to do so. If _I_ am too afraid to cycle on them, then what chance is there of people who have little experience of cycling picking it up? Cycling uptake starts with cycling infrastructure, very few people have a problem learning how to ride a bike.
  - dashundchen 6y ago
    > All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears. It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears. The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and you can see them almost standing or straining to turn the crank. I cringe to think about the pain they are inflicting on their knees. IME once you spend a few minutes teaching someone about their gears, they're usually shocked at how much easier and more efficiently riding is, and enjoy cycling much more.
    - bowmessage 6y ago
      Is doing this more damaging to knees than a standard weighted squat?
      - dashundchen 6y ago
        On it's own, I can't imagine so. However I would think straining hundreds or thousands of time on a ride vs a few dozen squats for a set has a much bigger potential for injury. I'd also add it's not uncommon to see riders with their bikes unadjusted for their size, e.g. they might be in an already weird position with their seatpost too low.
    - OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
      And even if people do know how to use gears, the gears are often in need of some adjustment, so people just stick to the ratios that happen to work.
      - zimpenfish 6y ago
        One of the main reasons I stuck my geared bike on the trainer and bought a single speed for London commuting - gears are FAFF to maintain. Yes, there's video tutorials, etc., but there's still a non-zero amount of witchcraft going on.
      - ldiracdelta 6y ago
        Worse is better on shifters. Old school downtube, non ratchetting shifters just work.
        OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
        Assuming you know how to work them, and are comfortable enough riding to reach down and fiddle with them.
        ldiracdelta 6y ago
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  This whole premise is crazy. Automatic shifting on bike is not a good idea. While people are terrible at shifting at first, they can learn to get better. Automatic shifting never improves. It's meant to be simple, but basic maintainability is a nightmare. Changing a tire requires 3 tools and about 10 steps just to pull the tire off. Thats bonkers. Pretty much eliminates any chance of roadside tire fixes.
  - Closi 6y ago
    I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Maintainability is not a big concern for them - someone else does it (The last tire change the local bike shop did it for us for £5 + parts). They would completely be in the target market for this. If they were buying a bike, this is a system they would want. In fact, it's a system I would want them to have, because I'm sick of watching them struggle with a single gear and they really do not feel comfortable with multiple gears! I've tried to explain the benefits of multiple gears and how it's actually simple, but they won't have it. They aren't that comfortable with riding a bike anyway, and they don't want something extra to think about on top of all the other things. I also don't think they are completely atypical. I can also see this being a great rental option, and great for kids who want a step-up bike as they learn. Your argument seems to be "advanced users don't want this" - but that's not the target market. Automatic gears on cars don't go into racing cars, and manual gearboxes can be easier to maintain and provide more control. Automatic gears on cars are actually really there to reduce complexity for the average driver, which is what this is for bikes.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Aside from mechanical issues, shifting gears when you don't expect it is about one of the worst experiences you can have on a bike. Being in a lower gear than you expect and spinning out or being in a higher gear and having no traction is terrible. The Nexus is super easy to shift (and can shift when you are stopped) has a bigger gear range, and is predictable. Also, when bikes were launched, these didn't exist. Now it's likely you can get an all around easier ebike for about the cost of one of these so it's a no-brainer. > Your argument seems to be "advanced users don't want this" No. My argument is nobody wants this you might think automatic shifting on a bike is a good idea, but every time it's been done people hate it. It doesn't work like an automatic in a car. The fact that it's far more difficult to change a tire means users are even less likely to learn basic maintenance. It's nice to say "They'll take it to the shop!", but that doesn't help when they are on the bike trail 4 miles from their car. With a somewhat normal drive-train another rider can give them an assist. With this, it's unlikely anyone has the tools with them to help out.
soared 6y ago
I spent some time learning the creative thinking process from an IDEO employee/teacher while in school. One of the early steps is defining your problem by interviewing consumers, which seems like where the misstep occurred. Being an avid cyclist with nearly no friends who bike, I've seen that they are not intimidated by "technology". They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear, while they are riding a walmart bike in baggy shorts with a dumb helmet, while visible to hundreds of people in cars. IMO the solution is not a new bike - its better group rides. Most people don't show up to the gym and start working out on their own, they take a class at a gym with gear and other noobs. I believe the best way to get people off the couch and biking is letting them go to a gym, with a bunch of noobs, and ride bikes together. Don't spend $400+, spend $75/mo. (A bike is maybe ~70% of the total cost of bike gear). I have a ton of cool resources from IDEO (now quite a few years old) and the creative thinking/ideation process, I can post them here if desired. For those misunderstanding my example: The difference is looking like you know what you're doing, and looking like you have no idea what you're doing. Regardless of the situation (biking, at work, or talking to women at bars) not knowing what you're doing and having that be publicly visible can be a huge hurdle to overcome.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  No one who doesn't own it thinks that low profile bike clothing is cool. Or rather, only people that own low profile bike clothing think it is cool. https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2015/11/13 https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2015/11/13
  - soared 6y ago
    My comment to a very similar reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25596163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25596163
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      I enjoy cycling quite a lot.
zachrose 6y ago
The core thesis behind the program is exciting. The bike industry in America exists primarily serve a relatively small group of enthusiasts, but it doesn't have to. There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). As the article suggests, I suspect it's more a problem of distribution. If IDEO suggested a $500 bike to be sold to casual riders at their local bike shop, well, that already exists. What doesn't exist (but could?) is a $275 steel three-speed at Walmart that's less performance-oriented than a $500 Trek but more practical than a beach cruiser.
- soared 6y ago
  I agree. It almost seems like Shimano was trying to get all the benefits of a single speed (low maintenance, reliable, zero-though when riding), but with gears. Single speeds are amazingly cheap, simple, near-zero maintenance.. but are not good for casual riders unless your city/metro is very flat.
  - jablan 6y ago
    IGH are not much more complicated than SS.
    - analog31 6y ago
      Indeed, I ride both, and the complexity of dealing with the gearing is negligible.
  - nradov 6y ago
    In my experience the reliability of single speed bikes is overstated. Several times when I rented or borrowed single speeds the chain kept dropping when I pedaled hard over rough roads. Sure that problem can be prevented through proper maintenance but in some circumstances it's sure nice to have a proper derailleur maintaining chain tension.
    - 6y ago
soared 6y ago
Interesting to note this write up is from 2010. Today internal shifting is much more commonplace - nearly every single e-bike and bike rental (jump bike/etc) have internal shifters, though they aren't automatic.
moron4hire 6y ago
> Who did Shimano and IDEO work with when they testes their prototype(s) ? Quite the funny typo, considering what long-term bicycling can do to male fertility.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  I thought that was primarily a marketing campaign for ergonomic saddles. I know a lot of people who bike, and there are no lack of children, wanted or unwanted. The only men I know lacking in the swimmer department would be served by more exercising.
ogre_codes 6y ago
I don't think a lot of people in the cycling industry are surprised this failed. While design is important, people with money want bikes that have good performance and are light weight. Bling is great, I take pride in my bike... but none of the components I have on my bike are heavier than their more bland looking counterparts. I'll accept half a pound for better suspension, but for a nice looking chain guard? Not a chance. On high end bikes, bling comes in the form of Anodized aluminum (or titanium), sexy colorful carbon fiber frames, colorful paint, or other parts that are colorful or polished without adding weight. Performance->Weight->Bling in that order. Looks like Shimano's Coasting program skipped steps 1 and 2 and skipped to Bling.
- chromaton 6y ago
  That's because they were trying to appeal to a completely different audience who doesn't see things that way. From the article, they were trying to focus on ease of use, which many current non-cyclists cited as an important factor.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    Shimano has some great technologies which make bikes easier to use. The Nexus drivetrain with belt drive is fantastic for casual cycling. This? Let me quote the directions for the most common bike maintenance issue—A flat tire. > "The rear wheel is removed from rear-facing dropouts. Remove both left and right side covers. Remove brake arm fixing bolts and washers. Loosen axle nut. Note orientation of the non-turn washer. This washer is used to prevent the axle from rotating in the dropout. > "Disengage the cable from the bell crank unit. Depress the adjusting rod and pull cable end from lever. Pull lever away from axle and remove adjusting rod. Use a 15mm wrench to loosen and remove axle nut. > "Remove bell crank unit and cover fixing stay bracket. Disengage chain from chainring and pull wheel back and out of dropouts." Compared to on a bike with a Nexus drive train: - Release the quick release. - Pull the tire out and disengage the chain. This is not simpler. Traditional bikes are already fairly simple.
deleted 6y ago
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redelbee 6y ago
Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people those reasons now but there is still a huge hurdle, and it has nothing to do with the bikes or technology. What if all bike companies (and component manufacturers like Shimano) spent all their R&D budgets on education and lobbying instead of better technology? That might work. Is any one company big enough to make a difference if it went at it alone? Probably not. I don’t look forward to environmental catastrophe but I do think it could help move cycling into more of a mainstream solution. Then perhaps we could have the will to tackle some of the infrastructure and norm issues that keep cycling a hobby at best.
- sideshowb 6y ago
  All the things you list are accurate... Also, more 20mph speed limits on urban routes useful to cyclists. Cheap and effective for creating a more cycling friendly environment.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    To paraphrase current civil engineering doctrine: A sign doesn't do anything to turn a four lane boulevard into a road people drive 20 on. The enforcement needed to back up the sign is not the kind of thing people put up with in the western world (a few pockets of Europe notwithstanding). You need to actually design the road to make 20mph a reasonable speed.
    - Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
      Anecdata: We recently instituted a 20mph limit across our town (I’m the chair of the town council and also a keen cyclist). We do regular speed surveys. Not everyone sticks to 20mph. But no one drives above 30mph any more. When we had a 30mph limit, we’d regularly get people driving up to 40mph. So it’s not perfect, but it does make a difference, here at least.
Glyptodon 6y ago
My opinion as a casual bicyclist: * I bought a bike during the existence of these things and never knew they existed (and I'm casual enough that my bike has a cupholder). * I'm certainly interested in less maintenance but have no interest in losing handbrakes, and if I did, would probably prefer fixie over coaster-esque. * Seat storage seems neat, but bike seats are very finicky person to person in terms of circulation, numb feet/toes, etc. * In my view single shifter is great and newer style single sprocket stacks that do 5 to 15 speeds off one shifter are where it's at. * I suspect if there were good (in same price bracket) disk brake options on very upright riding stance bikes people who tried would like. * A better default derailleur + shifter is probably an improvement casual bikers don't realize they'd love, but have no basis for ever getting. * Casual bikers need at least one very low gear because we find hills miserable. * Storage options can really make a bike for a casual rider, but they're less obvious to figure out than ideal. * It confuses me that these would win design awards.
- VectorLock 6y ago
  I also bought a bike during this period and had never heard of the Coasting thing and this is exactly the things I was looking for in a bike. Perhaps this was largely a failure of marketing.
exabrial 6y ago
I think one think urban planners [and HNers] get wrong about bike usage is bike lanes and mixing bikes with cars. That works in overcrowded coastal cities, but for the vast majority of the country, a different approach is likely optimal. Bentonville, AR I think has cracked the puzzle. They built mountain bike trails... literally everywhere. You're hanging out with your buddies north of town and want to grab a pizza for lunch? Awesome, hit this rad piece of singeltrack and shred your way to to za and beer. They even replaced a bunch of sidewalks with singletrack. This is not only better for the environment (it's literally just tamped dirt), but easier to maintain (a tamping machine and water truck vs a fossil fuel burning asphalt paver). Another success that's been less explosive, but worthy mention is streamway buffer trails. Rather than tossing bikes into traffic, which intimidates casual riders, and probably isn't safe where bike culture isn't a thing... municipalities put asphalt trails next to watersheds that need erosion control. The benefit is two fold, a shorcut throughway that's dedicated for pedestrian and bike traffic, plus civil engineers can use the bike pathway itself as a durable flood zone.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Right, but then you have to ride a mountain bike around. Which isn't really the best for longer distances of casual transportation…
  - exabrial 6y ago
    Bentonville has no mountains :)
  - petre 6y ago
    For longer distances you just get a gravel or touring bike. Works on singletrack most of the time as well.
- martyvis 6y ago
  If a large population is going to "shred" a track to get around its going to end up a muddy rut in no time, or only works for able 15-55 year olds.
jiofih 6y ago
I don’t get the drama. Coaster brake, shielded chain and automatic transmission are extremely common in the cycle-friendly parts of Europe. Though they are now being quickly replaced by electric.
jdeibele 6y ago
Portland is supposed to be one of the most bike-friendly cities in the United States. What the city has done is paint bike outlines on streets that are supposed to be mostly for bikes. It's supposed to be about every 10 blocks north-south and much further apart east-west. Downtown for most of the city is west. Every few streets there might be something that blocks cars (signage or physical barriers) or is supposed to slow them down (bumps, planters in the center of an intersection). One problem is that they're not dedicated to bikes. So you're sharing the street with other cars. And it's gotten worse because the city is cutting 4-lane feeder streets down to 2 lanes. They call it "traffic calming", which is not what most people would call it. So frustrated drivers are moving over to residential streets and zooming down them as fast as they can. It really seems like a lost opportunity to take the extra lanes and make them dedicated bike lanes. Have bollards in them that prevent cars from using them.
- beerandt 6y ago
  One of our local major surface streets went through this, but it was sold as helping make it more of a trendy shopping/market street. 4 lanes (2+2) reduced to 3 (1+1+turning). People have been fawning over the proposal for years, and are only now realizing what a disaster it is. And the businesses that thought they were getting a boost, end up with traffic counts cut by more than half, since people now avoid the purposely created congestion.
johnwalkr 6y ago
I had an internal geared hub (IGH) bike with a coaster brake and it was a blast to ride with almost zero maintenance. Even as an enthusiast that likes doing maintenance, it was nice to have that bike. I’m an advocate for IGH and drum or coaster brakes for casual commuter riders. Belt drives are nice too. These things have more drag than a derailleur and disc or caliper brakes, but this is offset by the maintenance aspect. What people don’t often realize is that IGH can have very wide gearing. A 3 or 7 speed IGH can have as wide gearing as a 24 speed, just with fewer gears in between and fewer gear combinations that are virtually the same. Another nice feature is you can change gears when stopped. On the other hand, what seems to sell in North America is crappy bikes with full suspension and maximum number of gears. In this case, Shimano should have simply sold the public on IGH and other existing low maintenance features, and got people on test rides. The automated shifting part seems useless and annoying. The real benefit is having fewer gears and one rather than 2 places to change the gear which is much simpler to manage. Actually IGH can’t shift smoothly under load so I can only imagine this automated system would feel clunky whenever you’re trying to accelerate or ride uphill.
- to11mtm 6y ago
  > On the other hand, what seems to sell in North America is crappy bikes with full suspension and maximum number of gears. Part of that problem is there's a certain cost floor to Derailleur based drivetrains versus Internally geared hubs, and when you're an ODM mass producing you're at a whole different level of price structure. > Actually IGH can’t shift smoothly under load Ehhhhh..... So The Nexus 8 speed will upshift under load OK, but downshift you typically will have to pause pedaling for at least a moment for the shift to complete. I had one on a tandem at one point and even with two experienced riders it could do the upshifts fine. I think? some other IGH manufacturers have/had models that could shift in both directions fine, but they were very expensive models. From my time slinging bikes (which was around when Shimano kicked off their 'Coasting' program,) where Shimano missed the boat was they didn't offer a 5 or 7 speed with shifting capabilities close enough to the Nexus 8. That would have been enough for everyone to be happy. As an aside, It's fun to see all the different kinds of shifters Shimano cooked up for their IGHs over the years to sell people on them... I'm still not sold on Drum brakes, in any case, but I'm also a Mechancial Disc zealot FWIW.

46 points by wx196 6y ago

A description of the Coasting system at Park Tool, https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/shimano-coasting-system https://www.parktool.com/blog/calvins-corner/shimano-coastin...

im3w1l 6y ago
It was very surprising to see them discuss for so long without even mentioning what it the system is. Maybe shifting gears based on speed is simply a bad idea?
jablan 6y ago
Thanks, although I am hobbyist bike mechanic, I never heard of Coasting before. Frankly, doesn't sound very attractive - a complicated (proprietary) automatic gear system relying on functioning (proprietary) front hub dynamo... All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears.
- laputan_machine 6y ago
  Agreed, the main reason for low cycling uptake in some countries is because it is utterly terrifying. I'm a seasoned cyclist in the UK; there are some roads I just will not cycle on because it is too dangerous to do so. If _I_ am too afraid to cycle on them, then what chance is there of people who have little experience of cycling picking it up? Cycling uptake starts with cycling infrastructure, very few people have a problem learning how to ride a bike.
- dashundchen 6y ago
  > All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears. It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears. The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and you can see them almost standing or straining to turn the crank. I cringe to think about the pain they are inflicting on their knees. IME once you spend a few minutes teaching someone about their gears, they're usually shocked at how much easier and more efficiently riding is, and enjoy cycling much more.
  - bowmessage 6y ago
    Is doing this more damaging to knees than a standard weighted squat?
    - dashundchen 6y ago
      On it's own, I can't imagine so. However I would think straining hundreds or thousands of time on a ride vs a few dozen squats for a set has a much bigger potential for injury. I'd also add it's not uncommon to see riders with their bikes unadjusted for their size, e.g. they might be in an already weird position with their seatpost too low.
  - OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
    And even if people do know how to use gears, the gears are often in need of some adjustment, so people just stick to the ratios that happen to work.
    - zimpenfish 6y ago
      One of the main reasons I stuck my geared bike on the trainer and bought a single speed for London commuting - gears are FAFF to maintain. Yes, there's video tutorials, etc., but there's still a non-zero amount of witchcraft going on.
    - ldiracdelta 6y ago
      Worse is better on shifters. Old school downtube, non ratchetting shifters just work.
      - OnlyOneCannolo 6y ago
        Assuming you know how to work them, and are comfortable enough riding to reach down and fiddle with them.
        ldiracdelta 6y ago
ogre_codes 6y ago
This whole premise is crazy. Automatic shifting on bike is not a good idea. While people are terrible at shifting at first, they can learn to get better. Automatic shifting never improves. It's meant to be simple, but basic maintainability is a nightmare. Changing a tire requires 3 tools and about 10 steps just to pull the tire off. Thats bonkers. Pretty much eliminates any chance of roadside tire fixes.
- Closi 6y ago
  I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Maintainability is not a big concern for them - someone else does it (The last tire change the local bike shop did it for us for £5 + parts). They would completely be in the target market for this. If they were buying a bike, this is a system they would want. In fact, it's a system I would want them to have, because I'm sick of watching them struggle with a single gear and they really do not feel comfortable with multiple gears! I've tried to explain the benefits of multiple gears and how it's actually simple, but they won't have it. They aren't that comfortable with riding a bike anyway, and they don't want something extra to think about on top of all the other things. I also don't think they are completely atypical. I can also see this being a great rental option, and great for kids who want a step-up bike as they learn. Your argument seems to be "advanced users don't want this" - but that's not the target market. Automatic gears on cars don't go into racing cars, and manual gearboxes can be easier to maintain and provide more control. Automatic gears on cars are actually really there to reduce complexity for the average driver, which is what this is for bikes.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > I don't think its crazy - both my mum and sister are intimidated by gears and tend to go for a fixie every time we go on holiday and you need a bike (e.g. Centre Parcs) but struggle to keep up on the hills. Aside from mechanical issues, shifting gears when you don't expect it is about one of the worst experiences you can have on a bike. Being in a lower gear than you expect and spinning out or being in a higher gear and having no traction is terrible. The Nexus is super easy to shift (and can shift when you are stopped) has a bigger gear range, and is predictable. Also, when bikes were launched, these didn't exist. Now it's likely you can get an all around easier ebike for about the cost of one of these so it's a no-brainer. > Your argument seems to be "advanced users don't want this" No. My argument is nobody wants this you might think automatic shifting on a bike is a good idea, but every time it's been done people hate it. It doesn't work like an automatic in a car. The fact that it's far more difficult to change a tire means users are even less likely to learn basic maintenance. It's nice to say "They'll take it to the shop!", but that doesn't help when they are on the bike trail 4 miles from their car. With a somewhat normal drive-train another rider can give them an assist. With this, it's unlikely anyone has the tools with them to help out.

soared 6y ago

I spent some time learning the creative thinking process from an IDEO employee/teacher while in school. One of the early steps is defining your problem by interviewing consumers, which seems like where the misstep occurred. Being an avid cyclist with nearly no friends who bike, I've seen that they are not intimidated by "technology". They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear, while they are riding a walmart bike in baggy shorts with a dumb helmet, while visible to hundreds of people in cars. IMO the solution is not a new bike - its better group rides. Most people don't show up to the gym and start working out on their own, they take a class at a gym with gear and other noobs. I believe the best way to get people off the couch and biking is letting them go to a gym, with a bunch of noobs, and ride bikes together. Don't spend $400+, spend $75/mo. (A bike is maybe ~70% of the total cost of bike gear). I have a ton of cool resources from IDEO (now quite a few years old) and the creative thinking/ideation process, I can post them here if desired. For those misunderstanding my example: The difference is looking like you know what you're doing, and looking like you have no idea what you're doing. Regardless of the situation (biking, at work, or talking to women at bars) not knowing what you're doing and having that be publicly visible can be a huge hurdle to overcome.

maxerickson 6y ago
No one who doesn't own it thinks that low profile bike clothing is cool. Or rather, only people that own low profile bike clothing think it is cool. https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2015/11/13 https://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2015/11/13
- soared 6y ago
  My comment to a very similar reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25596163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25596163
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    I enjoy cycling quite a lot.

zachrose 6y ago

The core thesis behind the program is exciting. The bike industry in America exists primarily serve a relatively small group of enthusiasts, but it doesn't have to. There's no equivalent to the Dutch department store bikes that, if memory serves correctly, were cheap but simple, low-maintenance, and better outfitted for casual riding (fenders, a light, a lock). As the article suggests, I suspect it's more a problem of distribution. If IDEO suggested a $500 bike to be sold to casual riders at their local bike shop, well, that already exists. What doesn't exist (but could?) is a $275 steel three-speed at Walmart that's less performance-oriented than a $500 Trek but more practical than a beach cruiser.

soared 6y ago
I agree. It almost seems like Shimano was trying to get all the benefits of a single speed (low maintenance, reliable, zero-though when riding), but with gears. Single speeds are amazingly cheap, simple, near-zero maintenance.. but are not good for casual riders unless your city/metro is very flat.
- jablan 6y ago
  IGH are not much more complicated than SS.
  - analog31 6y ago
    Indeed, I ride both, and the complexity of dealing with the gearing is negligible.
- nradov 6y ago
  In my experience the reliability of single speed bikes is overstated. Several times when I rented or borrowed single speeds the chain kept dropping when I pedaled hard over rough roads. Sure that problem can be prevented through proper maintenance but in some circumstances it's sure nice to have a proper derailleur maintaining chain tension.
  - 6y ago

soared 6y ago

Interesting to note this write up is from 2010. Today internal shifting is much more commonplace - nearly every single e-bike and bike rental (jump bike/etc) have internal shifters, though they aren't automatic.

moron4hire 6y ago

> Who did Shimano and IDEO work with when they testes their prototype(s) ? Quite the funny typo, considering what long-term bicycling can do to male fertility.

medium_burrito 6y ago
I thought that was primarily a marketing campaign for ergonomic saddles. I know a lot of people who bike, and there are no lack of children, wanted or unwanted. The only men I know lacking in the swimmer department would be served by more exercising.

ogre_codes 6y ago

I don't think a lot of people in the cycling industry are surprised this failed. While design is important, people with money want bikes that have good performance and are light weight. Bling is great, I take pride in my bike... but none of the components I have on my bike are heavier than their more bland looking counterparts. I'll accept half a pound for better suspension, but for a nice looking chain guard? Not a chance. On high end bikes, bling comes in the form of Anodized aluminum (or titanium), sexy colorful carbon fiber frames, colorful paint, or other parts that are colorful or polished without adding weight. Performance->Weight->Bling in that order. Looks like Shimano's Coasting program skipped steps 1 and 2 and skipped to Bling.

chromaton 6y ago
That's because they were trying to appeal to a completely different audience who doesn't see things that way. From the article, they were trying to focus on ease of use, which many current non-cyclists cited as an important factor.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Shimano has some great technologies which make bikes easier to use. The Nexus drivetrain with belt drive is fantastic for casual cycling. This? Let me quote the directions for the most common bike maintenance issue—A flat tire. > "The rear wheel is removed from rear-facing dropouts. Remove both left and right side covers. Remove brake arm fixing bolts and washers. Loosen axle nut. Note orientation of the non-turn washer. This washer is used to prevent the axle from rotating in the dropout. > "Disengage the cable from the bell crank unit. Depress the adjusting rod and pull cable end from lever. Pull lever away from axle and remove adjusting rod. Use a 15mm wrench to loosen and remove axle nut. > "Remove bell crank unit and cover fixing stay bracket. Disengage chain from chainring and pull wheel back and out of dropouts." Compared to on a bike with a Nexus drive train: - Release the quick release. - Pull the tire out and disengage the chain. This is not simpler. Traditional bikes are already fairly simple.

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redelbee 6y ago

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people those reasons now but there is still a huge hurdle, and it has nothing to do with the bikes or technology. What if all bike companies (and component manufacturers like Shimano) spent all their R&D budgets on education and lobbying instead of better technology? That might work. Is any one company big enough to make a difference if it went at it alone? Probably not. I don’t look forward to environmental catastrophe but I do think it could help move cycling into more of a mainstream solution. Then perhaps we could have the will to tackle some of the infrastructure and norm issues that keep cycling a hobby at best.

sideshowb 6y ago
All the things you list are accurate... Also, more 20mph speed limits on urban routes useful to cyclists. Cheap and effective for creating a more cycling friendly environment.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  To paraphrase current civil engineering doctrine: A sign doesn't do anything to turn a four lane boulevard into a road people drive 20 on. The enforcement needed to back up the sign is not the kind of thing people put up with in the western world (a few pockets of Europe notwithstanding). You need to actually design the road to make 20mph a reasonable speed.
  - Doctor_Fegg 6y ago
    Anecdata: We recently instituted a 20mph limit across our town (I’m the chair of the town council and also a keen cyclist). We do regular speed surveys. Not everyone sticks to 20mph. But no one drives above 30mph any more. When we had a 30mph limit, we’d regularly get people driving up to 40mph. So it’s not perfect, but it does make a difference, here at least.

Glyptodon 6y ago

My opinion as a casual bicyclist: * I bought a bike during the existence of these things and never knew they existed (and I'm casual enough that my bike has a cupholder). * I'm certainly interested in less maintenance but have no interest in losing handbrakes, and if I did, would probably prefer fixie over coaster-esque. * Seat storage seems neat, but bike seats are very finicky person to person in terms of circulation, numb feet/toes, etc. * In my view single shifter is great and newer style single sprocket stacks that do 5 to 15 speeds off one shifter are where it's at. * I suspect if there were good (in same price bracket) disk brake options on very upright riding stance bikes people who tried would like. * A better default derailleur + shifter is probably an improvement casual bikers don't realize they'd love, but have no basis for ever getting. * Casual bikers need at least one very low gear because we find hills miserable. * Storage options can really make a bike for a casual rider, but they're less obvious to figure out than ideal. * It confuses me that these would win design awards.

VectorLock 6y ago
I also bought a bike during this period and had never heard of the Coasting thing and this is exactly the things I was looking for in a bike. Perhaps this was largely a failure of marketing.

exabrial 6y ago

I think one think urban planners [and HNers] get wrong about bike usage is bike lanes and mixing bikes with cars. That works in overcrowded coastal cities, but for the vast majority of the country, a different approach is likely optimal. Bentonville, AR I think has cracked the puzzle. They built mountain bike trails... literally everywhere. You're hanging out with your buddies north of town and want to grab a pizza for lunch? Awesome, hit this rad piece of singeltrack and shred your way to to za and beer. They even replaced a bunch of sidewalks with singletrack. This is not only better for the environment (it's literally just tamped dirt), but easier to maintain (a tamping machine and water truck vs a fossil fuel burning asphalt paver). Another success that's been less explosive, but worthy mention is streamway buffer trails. Rather than tossing bikes into traffic, which intimidates casual riders, and probably isn't safe where bike culture isn't a thing... municipalities put asphalt trails next to watersheds that need erosion control. The benefit is two fold, a shorcut throughway that's dedicated for pedestrian and bike traffic, plus civil engineers can use the bike pathway itself as a durable flood zone.

saagarjha 6y ago
Right, but then you have to ride a mountain bike around. Which isn't really the best for longer distances of casual transportation…
- exabrial 6y ago
  Bentonville has no mountains :)
- petre 6y ago
  For longer distances you just get a gravel or touring bike. Works on singletrack most of the time as well.
martyvis 6y ago
If a large population is going to "shred" a track to get around its going to end up a muddy rut in no time, or only works for able 15-55 year olds.

jiofih 6y ago

I don’t get the drama. Coaster brake, shielded chain and automatic transmission are extremely common in the cycle-friendly parts of Europe. Though they are now being quickly replaced by electric.

jdeibele 6y ago

Portland is supposed to be one of the most bike-friendly cities in the United States. What the city has done is paint bike outlines on streets that are supposed to be mostly for bikes. It's supposed to be about every 10 blocks north-south and much further apart east-west. Downtown for most of the city is west. Every few streets there might be something that blocks cars (signage or physical barriers) or is supposed to slow them down (bumps, planters in the center of an intersection). One problem is that they're not dedicated to bikes. So you're sharing the street with other cars. And it's gotten worse because the city is cutting 4-lane feeder streets down to 2 lanes. They call it "traffic calming", which is not what most people would call it. So frustrated drivers are moving over to residential streets and zooming down them as fast as they can. It really seems like a lost opportunity to take the extra lanes and make them dedicated bike lanes. Have bollards in them that prevent cars from using them.

beerandt 6y ago
One of our local major surface streets went through this, but it was sold as helping make it more of a trendy shopping/market street. 4 lanes (2+2) reduced to 3 (1+1+turning). People have been fawning over the proposal for years, and are only now realizing what a disaster it is. And the businesses that thought they were getting a boost, end up with traffic counts cut by more than half, since people now avoid the purposely created congestion.

johnwalkr 6y ago

I had an internal geared hub (IGH) bike with a coaster brake and it was a blast to ride with almost zero maintenance. Even as an enthusiast that likes doing maintenance, it was nice to have that bike. I’m an advocate for IGH and drum or coaster brakes for casual commuter riders. Belt drives are nice too. These things have more drag than a derailleur and disc or caliper brakes, but this is offset by the maintenance aspect. What people don’t often realize is that IGH can have very wide gearing. A 3 or 7 speed IGH can have as wide gearing as a 24 speed, just with fewer gears in between and fewer gear combinations that are virtually the same. Another nice feature is you can change gears when stopped. On the other hand, what seems to sell in North America is crappy bikes with full suspension and maximum number of gears. In this case, Shimano should have simply sold the public on IGH and other existing low maintenance features, and got people on test rides. The automated shifting part seems useless and annoying. The real benefit is having fewer gears and one rather than 2 places to change the gear which is much simpler to manage. Actually IGH can’t shift smoothly under load so I can only imagine this automated system would feel clunky whenever you’re trying to accelerate or ride uphill.

to11mtm 6y ago
> On the other hand, what seems to sell in North America is crappy bikes with full suspension and maximum number of gears. Part of that problem is there's a certain cost floor to Derailleur based drivetrains versus Internally geared hubs, and when you're an ODM mass producing you're at a whole different level of price structure. > Actually IGH can’t shift smoothly under load Ehhhhh..... So The Nexus 8 speed will upshift under load OK, but downshift you typically will have to pause pedaling for at least a moment for the shift to complete. I had one on a tandem at one point and even with two experienced riders it could do the upshifts fine. I think? some other IGH manufacturers have/had models that could shift in both directions fine, but they were very expensive models. From my time slinging bikes (which was around when Shimano kicked off their 'Coasting' program,) where Shimano missed the boat was they didn't offer a 5 or 7 speed with shifting capabilities close enough to the Nexus 8. That would have been enough for everyone to be happy. As an aside, It's fun to see all the different kinds of shifters Shimano cooked up for their IGHs over the years to sell people on them... I'm still not sold on Drum brakes, in any case, but I'm also a Mechancial Disc zealot FWIW.