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> There is no free equivalent available targeting HTML/JS I commented to the same effect elsewhere, but I would take this a step farther. There is no alternati

> There is no free equivalent available targeting HTML/JS I commented to the same effect elsewhere, but I would take this a step farther. There is no alternative, free or paid, Open Source or proprietary, targeting any platform (even just iOS or Windows) that is as good as Flash was at rapid prototyping and accessible game creation. To me, the focus on the web is really frustrating. Unity is not as good as Flash was for rapid prototyping. Gamemaker is not as good as Flash was for animation. It's not the platform's problem that literally no one has found a way to merge animation, artwork, and programming in the same way as Flash did. It's not that there's something awful about the web and that it ruined the ability to make that tool. Literally no one for any platform for any motivation has ever replicated Flash even just as a content creation tool. So why are we talking about the web at this point? WebGL, Canvas, and WASM are powerful enough to replace Flash. That is not the issue anymore. I think when people touted the web as a replacement for Flash, there was an expectation that some company or Open Source initiative somewhere was going to make effective tools and that never happened. And instead of talking about the fact that the entire games industry has been unable to replicate Flash, we're attacking the Open web instead. I agree that Flash was prematurely killed online, I agree that HTML advocates were too dismissive about the problems. But we are far past that point. The web kept its end of the bargain, the APIs exist, but nobody else built the necessary tools. We should be talking game engines right now, not the web.

chii 6y ago
the flash/macromedia creative suite is so good, and even tho it wasn't free, it was popular (with plenty of pirated copies obviously). If your thesis is true that the web/html api could've been just as good as flash had there just been a suite of tools to create the content, then why doesn't one already exist? I think the true underlying issue is that the expectations of the users have grown - "simple" animations that can be created in the flash suite and replicated using a html suite cannot satisfy users any more.
- danShumway 6y ago
  > then why doesn't one already exist? I think that's the big question that these threads need to be asking, because it's not just that it doesn't exist for the web. It doesn't exist anywhere for any platform. Coming in and just saying, 'HTML5 can't replicate Flash' -- not only is that inaccurate, it's unhelpful. We need to ask what modern developers need and why we seem to be unable to supply that. What are our modern tools missing? Would Flash still be relevant for indie development today? Do we need something more extensive or powerful? Do we need to rethink developer workflows? Is the problem funding, or finding a way to monetize, or is it a community problem where we just can't get indie devs to standardize on one tool? Every thread where people complain about the loss of Flash could be a really productive conversation about what a modern animation engine would need and how we could build one. But instead it's just people re-litigating a 15-20 year old fight for no reason. Because the APIs are there. Any company could build an animation engine today that output to any low-level language: C, Rust, whatever. And the output could be compiled to WASM and the pixel buffers could be rendered to a canvas. We could even do smart updates and partial re-renders and cache large operations on separate canvases. Or that frame compilation could happen behind the scenes in WASM and the image data could be spit out as a single array of pixels. We could do all of the optimizations we need. But that tool doesn't exist. It doesn't exist for the web, or for iOS, or for Android, or for Windows, or for any modern console. Why? That's the productive question to ask, that's the question that will actually help us make progress towards replacing Flash. The only thing the web can provide is APIs and technology, at some point game devs need to stop complaining about the web in specific and start asking why our game dev tools in general aren't up to snuff.
  - krapp 6y ago
    >But that tool doesn't exist. It doesn't exist for the web, or for iOS, or for Android, or for Windows, or for any modern console. Why? My 2 cents: the market for animation on the web collapsed due to changes in Youtube's algorithm, and Flash itself has been more or less superseded by game engines that can export to the web, 3d tools like MMD and game mods.
    - irrational 6y ago
- EamonnMR 6y ago
  Probably the same reason that Adobe let flash die on the vine-making a robust flash like authoring tool and targeting broke teenagers as your market isn't profitable.

chii 6y ago

the flash/macromedia creative suite is so good, and even tho it wasn't free, it was popular (with plenty of pirated copies obviously). If your thesis is true that the web/html api could've been just as good as flash had there just been a suite of tools to create the content, then why doesn't one already exist? I think the true underlying issue is that the expectations of the users have grown - "simple" animations that can be created in the flash suite and replicated using a html suite cannot satisfy users any more.

danShumway 6y ago
> then why doesn't one already exist? I think that's the big question that these threads need to be asking, because it's not just that it doesn't exist for the web. It doesn't exist anywhere for any platform. Coming in and just saying, 'HTML5 can't replicate Flash' -- not only is that inaccurate, it's unhelpful. We need to ask what modern developers need and why we seem to be unable to supply that. What are our modern tools missing? Would Flash still be relevant for indie development today? Do we need something more extensive or powerful? Do we need to rethink developer workflows? Is the problem funding, or finding a way to monetize, or is it a community problem where we just can't get indie devs to standardize on one tool? Every thread where people complain about the loss of Flash could be a really productive conversation about what a modern animation engine would need and how we could build one. But instead it's just people re-litigating a 15-20 year old fight for no reason. Because the APIs are there. Any company could build an animation engine today that output to any low-level language: C, Rust, whatever. And the output could be compiled to WASM and the pixel buffers could be rendered to a canvas. We could even do smart updates and partial re-renders and cache large operations on separate canvases. Or that frame compilation could happen behind the scenes in WASM and the image data could be spit out as a single array of pixels. We could do all of the optimizations we need. But that tool doesn't exist. It doesn't exist for the web, or for iOS, or for Android, or for Windows, or for any modern console. Why? That's the productive question to ask, that's the question that will actually help us make progress towards replacing Flash. The only thing the web can provide is APIs and technology, at some point game devs need to stop complaining about the web in specific and start asking why our game dev tools in general aren't up to snuff.
- krapp 6y ago
  >But that tool doesn't exist. It doesn't exist for the web, or for iOS, or for Android, or for Windows, or for any modern console. Why? My 2 cents: the market for animation on the web collapsed due to changes in Youtube's algorithm, and Flash itself has been more or less superseded by game engines that can export to the web, 3d tools like MMD and game mods.
  - irrational 6y ago
EamonnMR 6y ago
Probably the same reason that Adobe let flash die on the vine-making a robust flash like authoring tool and targeting broke teenagers as your market isn't profitable.