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The FDA first slows down the distribution of desperately needed hand sanitizer by forcing distilleries to denature the alcohol. Then it hits those trying to hel

The FDA first slows down the distribution of desperately needed hand sanitizer by forcing distilleries to denature the alcohol. Then it hits those trying to help with large surprise fees. Sure glad we have those regulators protecting us from the perils of the free market and personal choice.

nucleardog 6y ago
The free market got us methanol-laden hand sanitizer the second demand rose and the regulators looked away for a second. Don’t mistake your broken government as an argument against government in general.
- jaggederest 6y ago
  One of the primary ways to denature is by adding methanol. The free market had nothing to do with methylating the alcohol used in hand sanitizer. The FDA does a lot of stuff that is great, but the institutional paranoia about someone, somewhere being able to recreationally consume alcohol isn't one of them.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    To be fair, if it wasn't denatured then it wouldn't just be someone, somewhere. It would be hoards of underage kids. Heck if I use the self-checkout lane at the supermarket to buy cough medicine the attendant has to come over and approve the purchase because that's abused by underage kids as well. That said, I won't claim to know precisely where the line should be drawn, but would say that in a sanitizing product shortage during a pandemic the line should be somewhere in the area of "hey how about we make it easier to make more sanitizing products right now"
    - chrismcb 6y ago
      Would it? Would it be hoards of teenage kids? Perhaps we should try to figure out why hoards of teenage kids would drink cough syrup or hand sanitizer. Perhaps the problem is that we pay to much attention to underage kids. Maybe if there wasn't an age limit, underage drinking wouldn't be so taboo. And underage drinking would not be a problem and binge drinking might go down.
      - ineedasername 6y ago
        I agree with everything you said, but in our society as it is right now, I still believe it would be hoards of teenage kids. Maybe it's a local problem, but there are stores near me that put cough medicine behind the counter for this reason. So you're right, there are underlying dynamics that contribute to this behavior, but the behavior does exist.
        rtisdale 6y ago
        That's likely less to do with alcohol and more to do with the fact that it's pretty easy to "make" other psychoactive substances using it. In particular, you can spin robitussin rapidly to separate the dextromethorphan. https://erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/ https://erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/
    - xkcd-sucks 6y ago
      Unrealistic, teenagers can still get trashed on vanilla extract from the grocery store but very few do
      - ineedasername 6y ago
        Maybe this reflects a lot more on the environment & social circle I grew up in? In that context though: I think if the alcoholic nature of extracts were more widely known to teenagers, more would take advantage. But it also doesn't come in a convenient "party" format. If you could walk into Walmart, buy a half-gallon of sanitizer for $10 (well, pre-covid you could get those sizes for cheap, now not so much) and mix it with a gallon of fruit punch, then you've basically got the ingredients for a typical small 4-8 person Everclear & Fruitpunch highschool basement party without the hassle of tracking down that >= 21 friend.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - tptacek 6y ago
    Downthread someone has managed to cite the FDA specifically telling manufacturers not to include methanol.
- Lazare 6y ago
  The FDA forced distilleries to add methanol to the hand sanitiser, despite that causing significantly higher costs and delays. I'm not sure you could have have this story more backwards.
  - cypherpunks01 6y ago
    I don't think this is correct. While it's accurate that the FDA requires industrial alcohol to be denatured, they specifically said "methanol cannot safely be used as an ingredient, or as a denaturant, in hand sanitizer"[1]. A few alternative alcohols are allowed to be used as denaturants under the emergency sanitizer guidance instead, e.g. isopropyl, tert-butyl. I don't think those are safe to drink, but I think they are safe for skin unlike methyl. [1] https://www.fda.gov/media/136118/download https://www.fda.gov/media/136118/download
    - Lazare 6y ago
      I replied in haste, and was incorrect. Mea culpa.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    Having bought multiple hand sanitizers made by distilleries, I can report all of them used isopropyl, not methanol -- which certainly suggests the FDA did not require them to use methanol. And, someone else replied to you with the chapter and verse from the FDA explicitly saying the opposite of what you are. Somebody may have this story backwards, but I don't think it's the person you're replying to. Where did you get your information?
  - nucleardog 6y ago
    I said nothing of the FDA or the US. I'm in Canada. Health Canada not only did not require methanol to be added to sanitizers, it explicitly forbids it and forced recalls on many products that manufacturers tried to sell containing it. > Don’t mistake your broken government as an argument against government in general.
- casefields 6y ago
  An accident vs the government purposely poisoning American’s alcohol: https://slate.com/technology/2010/02/the-little-told-story-of-how-the-u-s-government-poisoned-alcohol-during-prohibition.html https://slate.com/technology/2010/02/the-little-told-story-o...
starpilot 6y ago
I'm sure you would have taken a free market, non-FDA approved vaccine as well.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  If you died of the unregulated vaccine then the market would correct the situation by incentivizing grieving families to choose a more reliable vaccine from a competitor.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    I really wonder if I'm getting downvoted by free-market enthusiasts, the poor attempt at humor, or because it wasn't completely clear it was meant in sarcasm. Or maybe all three? I don't really care about internet points, but I'm always curious about such things.
    - lemonspat 6y ago
      You could add a /sarcasm to it for clarity, instead of posting a follow up comment
      - ineedasername 6y ago
        I think /sarcasm takes something away from it. If I put that there, people don't have to actually think about the comment and what I meant, or their own reaction to it. Using /s tells them automatically, and allows a reflexive response for/against the comment that short-circuits actually thinking about it. I'll risk the downvotes, they don't bother me. But I am curious about why people downvote, hence my follow up. Clearly some people will downvote a thing they disagree with, or is flame bait. But will they downvote a thing they might agree with, but it also worded as flame bait? That sort of thing. I really am curious about the various behavioral patterns involved in awarding internet points.
        nl 6y ago

nucleardog 6y ago

The free market got us methanol-laden hand sanitizer the second demand rose and the regulators looked away for a second. Don’t mistake your broken government as an argument against government in general.

jaggederest 6y ago
One of the primary ways to denature is by adding methanol. The free market had nothing to do with methylating the alcohol used in hand sanitizer. The FDA does a lot of stuff that is great, but the institutional paranoia about someone, somewhere being able to recreationally consume alcohol isn't one of them.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  To be fair, if it wasn't denatured then it wouldn't just be someone, somewhere. It would be hoards of underage kids. Heck if I use the self-checkout lane at the supermarket to buy cough medicine the attendant has to come over and approve the purchase because that's abused by underage kids as well. That said, I won't claim to know precisely where the line should be drawn, but would say that in a sanitizing product shortage during a pandemic the line should be somewhere in the area of "hey how about we make it easier to make more sanitizing products right now"
  - chrismcb 6y ago
    Would it? Would it be hoards of teenage kids? Perhaps we should try to figure out why hoards of teenage kids would drink cough syrup or hand sanitizer. Perhaps the problem is that we pay to much attention to underage kids. Maybe if there wasn't an age limit, underage drinking wouldn't be so taboo. And underage drinking would not be a problem and binge drinking might go down.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      I agree with everything you said, but in our society as it is right now, I still believe it would be hoards of teenage kids. Maybe it's a local problem, but there are stores near me that put cough medicine behind the counter for this reason. So you're right, there are underlying dynamics that contribute to this behavior, but the behavior does exist.
      - rtisdale 6y ago
        That's likely less to do with alcohol and more to do with the fact that it's pretty easy to "make" other psychoactive substances using it. In particular, you can spin robitussin rapidly to separate the dextromethorphan. https://erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/ https://erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/
  - xkcd-sucks 6y ago
    Unrealistic, teenagers can still get trashed on vanilla extract from the grocery store but very few do
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      Maybe this reflects a lot more on the environment & social circle I grew up in? In that context though: I think if the alcoholic nature of extracts were more widely known to teenagers, more would take advantage. But it also doesn't come in a convenient "party" format. If you could walk into Walmart, buy a half-gallon of sanitizer for $10 (well, pre-covid you could get those sizes for cheap, now not so much) and mix it with a gallon of fruit punch, then you've basically got the ingredients for a typical small 4-8 person Everclear & Fruitpunch highschool basement party without the hassle of tracking down that >= 21 friend.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tptacek 6y ago
  Downthread someone has managed to cite the FDA specifically telling manufacturers not to include methanol.
Lazare 6y ago
The FDA forced distilleries to add methanol to the hand sanitiser, despite that causing significantly higher costs and delays. I'm not sure you could have have this story more backwards.
- cypherpunks01 6y ago
  I don't think this is correct. While it's accurate that the FDA requires industrial alcohol to be denatured, they specifically said "methanol cannot safely be used as an ingredient, or as a denaturant, in hand sanitizer"[1]. A few alternative alcohols are allowed to be used as denaturants under the emergency sanitizer guidance instead, e.g. isopropyl, tert-butyl. I don't think those are safe to drink, but I think they are safe for skin unlike methyl. [1] https://www.fda.gov/media/136118/download https://www.fda.gov/media/136118/download
  - Lazare 6y ago
    I replied in haste, and was incorrect. Mea culpa.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  Having bought multiple hand sanitizers made by distilleries, I can report all of them used isopropyl, not methanol -- which certainly suggests the FDA did not require them to use methanol. And, someone else replied to you with the chapter and verse from the FDA explicitly saying the opposite of what you are. Somebody may have this story backwards, but I don't think it's the person you're replying to. Where did you get your information?
- nucleardog 6y ago
  I said nothing of the FDA or the US. I'm in Canada. Health Canada not only did not require methanol to be added to sanitizers, it explicitly forbids it and forced recalls on many products that manufacturers tried to sell containing it. > Don’t mistake your broken government as an argument against government in general.
casefields 6y ago
An accident vs the government purposely poisoning American’s alcohol: https://slate.com/technology/2010/02/the-little-told-story-of-how-the-u-s-government-poisoned-alcohol-during-prohibition.html https://slate.com/technology/2010/02/the-little-told-story-o...

starpilot 6y ago

I'm sure you would have taken a free market, non-FDA approved vaccine as well.

ineedasername 6y ago
If you died of the unregulated vaccine then the market would correct the situation by incentivizing grieving families to choose a more reliable vaccine from a competitor.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  I really wonder if I'm getting downvoted by free-market enthusiasts, the poor attempt at humor, or because it wasn't completely clear it was meant in sarcasm. Or maybe all three? I don't really care about internet points, but I'm always curious about such things.
  - lemonspat 6y ago
    You could add a /sarcasm to it for clarity, instead of posting a follow up comment
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      I think /sarcasm takes something away from it. If I put that there, people don't have to actually think about the comment and what I meant, or their own reaction to it. Using /s tells them automatically, and allows a reflexive response for/against the comment that short-circuits actually thinking about it. I'll risk the downvotes, they don't bother me. But I am curious about why people downvote, hence my follow up. Clearly some people will downvote a thing they disagree with, or is flame bait. But will they downvote a thing they might agree with, but it also worded as flame bait? That sort of thing. I really am curious about the various behavioral patterns involved in awarding internet points.
      - nl 6y ago