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It infuriates me that rideshare services have become the poster children for the "contractors or employees" debate because they're incredibly well-suited to bei

It infuriates me that rideshare services have become the poster children for the "contractors or employees" debate because they're incredibly well-suited to being contractors. They genuinely get to work for competing services and pick their own hours. Uber and Lyft are the hammer used to smash people fighting for workers in industries where they're only contractors on paper. Where they aren't allowed to pick their hours or work for another employer in the same field. "Make everybody we can a contract worker" is a cancer eating the blue collar economy alive. Hair stylists, nail techs, estheticians, massage therapists, painters, plumber's assistants, etc are all suffering immensely. There are buildings with a set 8-4 schedule with hundreds of people in them of which only three managers count as employees.

dghlsakjg 6y ago
I think part of the issue is that is difficult and possibly expensive to fight that fight on your own. We need DAs and enforcement actions that favor workers. We need the IRS to automatically flag people with a ton of contractor income from a single source and let them know that they may have been misclassified, and that they may not owe nearly as much in taxes if so. And then we need the IRS to publicly scare employers into erring on the side of calling workers employees. I fought a misclassification with a former employer. I was able to get a ruling from the IRS, but the employer never really faced any real punishment, even though it was in writing that he was playing tax games. I think what it comes down to is that almost no one knows how to dispute it or that they even can dispute. And many employers will immediately get rid of you if you try.
- bestnameever 6y ago
  > and that they may not owe nearly as much in taxes if so. I imagine many independent contractors would be paid less if they were employees.
amelius 6y ago
Yes. It's infuriating how much difference a simple administrative matter can make. I've heard stories from teachers who, working as contractors, make more than 2x the salary of equivalent employees. And they even get to choose their days off. Can we get some economical fairness, pretty soon please?
- therealdrag0 6y ago
  Is it still 2x after benefits? I thought contractors have to get their own healthcare, retirement, no-pto, which take a good chunk of that bonus cash.
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
Choosing one's hours is a single dimension of autonomy. In many other aspects, rideshare companies control the work: declining rides can lower ratings or lead to being removed from the platform. As an outside observer, it largely appears the companies have control over which dimensions are flexible and which aren't, and they can change at anytime. The state covers unemployment when these drivers lose their work: yet W2 employees have to pay in for such benefits. A more 'hands-off' approach would bolster ridesharing companies argument that a proper classification is contractor. But the picking and choosing has to stop for that to be the case.
abdullahkhalids 6y ago
> They genuinely get to work for competing services and pick their own hours. I don't know about other countries, but in my country, Uber (and other companies) offers drivers a bonus for completing X amount of rides in Y days. Except that completing X-1 rides, earns you a pittance, far below a livable wage, and X rides earns you just above. Also, X is also quite a large number. I don't think it's possible to complete it without working for 8+ hours during peak traffic time. So, in effect, drivers are not free to choose their working hours, if they intend to make enough money to live on.
wpietri 6y ago
I agree with you on the cancer part. But speaking as somebody who has spent years as a contractor, I don't think Uber's drivers are "incredibly well-suited to being contractors". For me, the essence of a good contractor relationship is a balance of power. It went best for me when I had multiple warm clients, giving me the ability to tell any one of them "no". This meant that they'd listen to me and bargain fairly. And if they didn't, well, I could walk and I'd be fine, especially since I was careful to keep a significant financial cushion. Uber drivers face a tremendous power imbalance, and that was always the goal. Kalanick was aiming for a monopoly. He didn't quite get there, but given that they have 70% of the rideshare market and Lyft has the other 30%, it's close enough. With that sort of market failure, and given the eagerness of VCs to buy future market failure, there's no way I'd want to be a contractor in that market.
- martinald 6y ago
  Surely that's the same for an employee relationship though? If you have multiple employment offers in high paid industries, you are going to get them to bargain and negotiate quite well.
  - wpietri 6y ago
    It's similar, but for contract work, you need that to be ongoing. Law and custom provide protections for employees that contractors don't get.

dghlsakjg 6y ago

I think part of the issue is that is difficult and possibly expensive to fight that fight on your own. We need DAs and enforcement actions that favor workers. We need the IRS to automatically flag people with a ton of contractor income from a single source and let them know that they may have been misclassified, and that they may not owe nearly as much in taxes if so. And then we need the IRS to publicly scare employers into erring on the side of calling workers employees. I fought a misclassification with a former employer. I was able to get a ruling from the IRS, but the employer never really faced any real punishment, even though it was in writing that he was playing tax games. I think what it comes down to is that almost no one knows how to dispute it or that they even can dispute. And many employers will immediately get rid of you if you try.

bestnameever 6y ago
> and that they may not owe nearly as much in taxes if so. I imagine many independent contractors would be paid less if they were employees.

amelius 6y ago

Yes. It's infuriating how much difference a simple administrative matter can make. I've heard stories from teachers who, working as contractors, make more than 2x the salary of equivalent employees. And they even get to choose their days off. Can we get some economical fairness, pretty soon please?

therealdrag0 6y ago
Is it still 2x after benefits? I thought contractors have to get their own healthcare, retirement, no-pto, which take a good chunk of that bonus cash.

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

Choosing one's hours is a single dimension of autonomy. In many other aspects, rideshare companies control the work: declining rides can lower ratings or lead to being removed from the platform. As an outside observer, it largely appears the companies have control over which dimensions are flexible and which aren't, and they can change at anytime. The state covers unemployment when these drivers lose their work: yet W2 employees have to pay in for such benefits. A more 'hands-off' approach would bolster ridesharing companies argument that a proper classification is contractor. But the picking and choosing has to stop for that to be the case.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago

> They genuinely get to work for competing services and pick their own hours. I don't know about other countries, but in my country, Uber (and other companies) offers drivers a bonus for completing X amount of rides in Y days. Except that completing X-1 rides, earns you a pittance, far below a livable wage, and X rides earns you just above. Also, X is also quite a large number. I don't think it's possible to complete it without working for 8+ hours during peak traffic time. So, in effect, drivers are not free to choose their working hours, if they intend to make enough money to live on.

wpietri 6y ago

I agree with you on the cancer part. But speaking as somebody who has spent years as a contractor, I don't think Uber's drivers are "incredibly well-suited to being contractors". For me, the essence of a good contractor relationship is a balance of power. It went best for me when I had multiple warm clients, giving me the ability to tell any one of them "no". This meant that they'd listen to me and bargain fairly. And if they didn't, well, I could walk and I'd be fine, especially since I was careful to keep a significant financial cushion. Uber drivers face a tremendous power imbalance, and that was always the goal. Kalanick was aiming for a monopoly. He didn't quite get there, but given that they have 70% of the rideshare market and Lyft has the other 30%, it's close enough. With that sort of market failure, and given the eagerness of VCs to buy future market failure, there's no way I'd want to be a contractor in that market.

martinald 6y ago
Surely that's the same for an employee relationship though? If you have multiple employment offers in high paid industries, you are going to get them to bargain and negotiate quite well.
- wpietri 6y ago
  It's similar, but for contract work, you need that to be ongoing. Law and custom provide protections for employees that contractors don't get.