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Looked through the materials posted and it seems like Nintendo just diligently observed an active modder and as diligently made a detailed plan for a conversati

by seeekr 6y ago

Looked through the materials posted and it seems like Nintendo just diligently observed an active modder and as diligently made a detailed plan for a conversation with them in person, to (politely, as far as I can tell) get them to stop efforts that, in their perspective, might otherwise open up their console(s) for running pirated software or similar. The tweets seem a bit sensationalist to me. What am I missing?

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
Because a private company has no right to tell me what to do with the hardware and software I legally bought from them. They can deny my warranty and ban my account and device-ID on their cloud services for breaking their EULA, fine, but they have no right to come into my life and politely (the mafia "stop what you're doing or else" kind of politely) tell me what I can't do with the device I legally own, in my spare time. If I want to root my smart device which I legally own to run Doom on it, that should be completely legal. If the mods that allow me to run Doom on it could also be used by others to run pirated content is another matter that should not be my problem, but the device manufacturer's to patch and implement better security on their hardware and software and only go after those who are proven to be involved in piracy, not after the tool makers. If a burglar uses a B0sch powertool to break into my house, should I go after B0sch for making tools that allow criminals to engage in illegal activities?
- asutekku 6y ago
  If you’re distributing the software to allow pirated usage the lawyers might disagree with you.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    That's their job as a company to hire developers to patch the exploits the modders find and use, not to go stalk the modders. Should Google come after me for rooting my Andorid phone and sideloading apps not on their app store?
    - Andrex 6y ago
      Not comparable. Android explicitly allows third-party software (even if you have to toggle a setting first.) Jailbreaking falls under a legal gray area, which is debatably covered by the "right to repair" section of the DMCA. Breaking a console's DRM explicitly to play non-approved software is violating the DMCA and against the law. As I said, not really comparable.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        I live in Europe where the DMCA does not apply.
        zinekeller 6y ago
        Please look up your laws before commenting. Yes, DMCA, as you have correctly stated, does not apply in the EEA. However, IP infrigement in EEA is dealt with much tougher than the US. Don't believe me? From YouTube v GEMA and the whole youtube-dl debacle to cases in France regarding software copyright infrigement, the authors (in this case, Nintendo) have the collective right to assert copyright in the console software, and often is also the co-author of the software released on their platforms. As asutekku have stated: If you’re distributing the software to allow pirated usage the lawyers might disagree with you. It seems that the US is the leader in IP cases, but that is simply due to the fact that most companies that can act are based there. The reality is that Europe have different IP statures which favors the authors more than others. TLDR: US IP law deals economic losses, European IP law focuses on moral losses. This means that even with DMCA, Nintendo (and every other author, whether as an individual or company (in the non-corporate sense) or corporate) have rights in Europe that are stronger than in the US.
        zinekeller 6y ago
        Genuine question in response to controversial voting pattern: Why? Is there a point here that is wrong specifically? Or you just hate the fact that corporations do have significant power in Europe? Because shooting down the messenger doesn't change the basic fact here.
  - tiagoespinha 6y ago
    ...and they should take it up with the law. Not play vigilante.
- Andrex 6y ago
  Circumventing the DMCA is against the law and can get you prosecuted, for better or worse. It's more serious than just "not following the EULA." This is why the "right to repair" is important to fight for -- by default, Americans don't have such protections.
  - scoutt 6y ago
    DMCA only applies to the United States. It practically has no meaning elsewhere (I don't know the modder nationality, but the modder claims he/she has a PAL Nintendo console (european version)).
    - zinekeller 6y ago
      While the nationality of the user is definitely questionable, there is no longer such a thing as a PAL or NTSC Switch, only first (easily exploitable) and second (much harder to exploit, has a longer battery life) generation Switches (and the Lite). In this case, my personal reading on this is that an American that tries to invoke "I do not violate DMCA because I bought this at another country", which is laughable if you are still in USA. Note that I despise DMCA as much as you are, but if you are in USA it still exists. Edit: America to USA. However, Americans (as in people from the US) should note that there are similar provisions throughout Americas (especially Mexico and Brazil).
      - scoutt 6y ago
        Sorry. With nationality I meant where the modder is located. The modder talks about an "european 3ds"[1]. I assumed the person was located in Europe (there is a related document in that thread called "belgian waffle"). The DMCA will still have effect for example, if the modder is in Germany and hosts their cracks on Github. A DMCA takedown can be sent to Github to take down the crack. The modder should be untouchable by American authorities (directly). If the crack is hosted in a (for example) Swedish server, then the DMCA is no valid (only at the server owner discretion). DMCA doesn't forbid you to crack the console, but to release the tools to circumvent a security measure. You can brag all what you want on internet about a crack you've made, but the moment you publish even a clue on how to crack something, a DMCA can be sent to either put down the info from a website or to make you to desist (only if either you and/or the server are located, or have business, in the United States). [1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpzhxXkXEAIuDYz?format=png&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpzhxXkXEAIuDYz?format=png&name=... Edit: modder is a 26 years old male living in Belgium (https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/1341230631913541633/photo/1 https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/134123063191354163...)
- CyberRabbi 6y ago
  I fully support the right to repair. I am a tinkerer myself. After looking into the details of a few of these cases I don’t believe Nintendo is in the wrong. A lot of these so-called hackers who have been targeted by Nintendo do this stuff in bad faith. They end up using the result of their efforts to build businesses based on pirating Nintendo content. Once they get caught they will nearly always lie through their teeth about their illegal business activities and claim they are innocent open-source hackers or whatever. It’s really deceptive and more offensive to me as someone who legitimately likes to tinker. For the most part I disagree with the DMCA anti-circumvention law but in nearly every case I’ve seen the people being targeted were doing much more than just selling mod chips.
  - javajosh 6y ago
    >hey end up using the result of their efforts to build businesses based on pirating Nintendo content. Cite?
    - CyberRabbi 6y ago
      The Team Xecuter case comes to mind: > These defendants lined their pockets by stealing and selling the intellectual property of other video-game developers–even going so far as to make customers pay a licensing fee to play stolen games, https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-members-notorious-videogame-piracy-group-team-xecuter-custody https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-members-notorious-v...
  - Kaze404 6y ago
    This is completely wrong. Neimod was in fact so against piracy that there's accounts of him banning people from the 3dsdev IRC simply for trying to jump-start the 3ds homebrew scene back then.
- javajosh 6y ago
  >Because a private company has no right to tell me what to do with the hardware and software I legally bought from them. Interestingly, Nintendo's explicit message was not that the hacking was wrong, but that the sharing of the hacking was wrong, because sharing the hack encourages piracy on a larger scale. It's hard to argue with that logic, TBH. And I actually admire their soft touch approach. My sense is that this is not that big of a deal, to Nintendo or anyone else. The platform, the physicality of "normal" distribution, plus the general inability of people to successfully mod their stuff, all favors Nintendo naturally. Seems like a tempest in a teapot, and if anything, I don't think it harms Nintendo's reputation at all (modulo sensationalist headlines).
  - zucker42 6y ago
    > It's hard to argue with that logic, TBH. If you can't come up with an argument against that then you're not trying hard enough. The most obvious is that sharing a mod is free speech and ought to be protected as such. It's also unclear how mods contribute to copyright infringement in any meaningful way. I'm having trouble finding details about exactly what Neimod's mods entailed, but most mods I have experience with require an existing copy of the game.
    - javajosh 6y ago
      Information products require artificial scarcity to be economically viable. If freedom of speech gives individuals a license to say anything in any medium, then this means that artificial scarcity is inconsistent with free speech. If artificial scarcity is immoral, then all information products are immoral. (Note that as a practical matter I suspect that Nintendo only cares about "hacking" insofar as it undermines sales. I can't see why they would care about people modifying the games or equipment they own. I can totally see why they would care if someone invented an SD card cartridge for the 3DS that allows you to run every game ever written from it. Such a device, if mass produced and sold for profit, is clearly intended for piracy. Moreover, its easy to see how such a device is parasitic on the platform itself, so that if Nintendo didn't do something about it then there won't be a Nintendo.)
t0astbread 6y ago
I'm not aware of legal definitions but to me that sounds like stalking. Friendly contact would be an email or a phone call or talking to them at a public event but not setting up a team of field agents to follow someone and track their habits, then threaten with legal action at their door. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking: > Stalking is unwanted and/or repeated surveillance by an individual or group toward another person. Stalking behaviors are interrelated to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person or monitoring them. > According to a 2002 report by the U.S. National Center for Victims of Crime, "virtually any unwanted contact between two people that directly or indirectly communicates a threat or places the victim in fear can be considered stalking", although in practice the legal standard is usually somewhat stricter.
rriepe 6y ago
You're missing the recent Nintendo news, maybe. They've been copyright-striking streamers who play their games. They earned in a couple months the reputation that companies like EA and Blizzard took years to earn.
areoform 6y ago
There is more to the story, https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/1341230631913541633 https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/134123063191354163... The idea that someone modifying hardware and software they legally purchased for the sake of their curiosity - something once called tinkering, would lead to private investigators dig up details, follow the person around, and try and interview their family members etc for pressure points is disturbing. We typically do this for natsec, a private company doing it for a video game that's of little to no consequence in the grand scheme is fundamentally disturbing.
- luch 6y ago
  Well, sorry to break it for you but private companies have done this for decades. Rupert Murdoch's Pirates is a fantastic book on the subject: https://www.amazon.fr/Murdochs-Pirates-hacking-Ruperts-skullduggery-ebook/dp/B009VA1NVU https://www.amazon.fr/Murdochs-Pirates-hacking-Ruperts-skull... Basically pay-for-TV companies went ballistic in the 90s' and 00s' against hackers, and people died in the process.
- shanemlk 6y ago
  I'm sure if this person just enjoyed tinkering on the hardware in their office and not spreading code for intellectual property they don't own, we wouldn't be here.
zucker42 6y ago
They are threatening to use their size and legal savvy to pressure a prosecutor to bring charges against him. At least that's how I interpret "mutually acceptable agreement with Neimod to discontinue hacking of Nintendo systems/products as opposed to pursuing a criminal referral".
praptak 6y ago
Because the right to privacy is a human right and the corporation did not respect it. Yes, there are reasons which can limit the right to privacy but protecting corporate profit is not one of them.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by seeekr 6y ago

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

Because a private company has no right to tell me what to do with the hardware and software I legally bought from them. They can deny my warranty and ban my account and device-ID on their cloud services for breaking their EULA, fine, but they have no right to come into my life and politely (the mafia "stop what you're doing or else" kind of politely) tell me what I can't do with the device I legally own, in my spare time. If I want to root my smart device which I legally own to run Doom on it, that should be completely legal. If the mods that allow me to run Doom on it could also be used by others to run pirated content is another matter that should not be my problem, but the device manufacturer's to patch and implement better security on their hardware and software and only go after those who are proven to be involved in piracy, not after the tool makers. If a burglar uses a B0sch powertool to break into my house, should I go after B0sch for making tools that allow criminals to engage in illegal activities?

asutekku 6y ago
If you’re distributing the software to allow pirated usage the lawyers might disagree with you.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  That's their job as a company to hire developers to patch the exploits the modders find and use, not to go stalk the modders. Should Google come after me for rooting my Andorid phone and sideloading apps not on their app store?
  - Andrex 6y ago
    Not comparable. Android explicitly allows third-party software (even if you have to toggle a setting first.) Jailbreaking falls under a legal gray area, which is debatably covered by the "right to repair" section of the DMCA. Breaking a console's DRM explicitly to play non-approved software is violating the DMCA and against the law. As I said, not really comparable.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      I live in Europe where the DMCA does not apply.
      - zinekeller 6y ago
        Please look up your laws before commenting. Yes, DMCA, as you have correctly stated, does not apply in the EEA. However, IP infrigement in EEA is dealt with much tougher than the US. Don't believe me? From YouTube v GEMA and the whole youtube-dl debacle to cases in France regarding software copyright infrigement, the authors (in this case, Nintendo) have the collective right to assert copyright in the console software, and often is also the co-author of the software released on their platforms. As asutekku have stated: If you’re distributing the software to allow pirated usage the lawyers might disagree with you. It seems that the US is the leader in IP cases, but that is simply due to the fact that most companies that can act are based there. The reality is that Europe have different IP statures which favors the authors more than others. TLDR: US IP law deals economic losses, European IP law focuses on moral losses. This means that even with DMCA, Nintendo (and every other author, whether as an individual or company (in the non-corporate sense) or corporate) have rights in Europe that are stronger than in the US.
        zinekeller 6y ago
        Genuine question in response to controversial voting pattern: Why? Is there a point here that is wrong specifically? Or you just hate the fact that corporations do have significant power in Europe? Because shooting down the messenger doesn't change the basic fact here.
- tiagoespinha 6y ago
  ...and they should take it up with the law. Not play vigilante.
Andrex 6y ago
Circumventing the DMCA is against the law and can get you prosecuted, for better or worse. It's more serious than just "not following the EULA." This is why the "right to repair" is important to fight for -- by default, Americans don't have such protections.
- scoutt 6y ago
  DMCA only applies to the United States. It practically has no meaning elsewhere (I don't know the modder nationality, but the modder claims he/she has a PAL Nintendo console (european version)).
  - zinekeller 6y ago
    While the nationality of the user is definitely questionable, there is no longer such a thing as a PAL or NTSC Switch, only first (easily exploitable) and second (much harder to exploit, has a longer battery life) generation Switches (and the Lite). In this case, my personal reading on this is that an American that tries to invoke "I do not violate DMCA because I bought this at another country", which is laughable if you are still in USA. Note that I despise DMCA as much as you are, but if you are in USA it still exists. Edit: America to USA. However, Americans (as in people from the US) should note that there are similar provisions throughout Americas (especially Mexico and Brazil).
    - scoutt 6y ago
      Sorry. With nationality I meant where the modder is located. The modder talks about an "european 3ds"[1]. I assumed the person was located in Europe (there is a related document in that thread called "belgian waffle"). The DMCA will still have effect for example, if the modder is in Germany and hosts their cracks on Github. A DMCA takedown can be sent to Github to take down the crack. The modder should be untouchable by American authorities (directly). If the crack is hosted in a (for example) Swedish server, then the DMCA is no valid (only at the server owner discretion). DMCA doesn't forbid you to crack the console, but to release the tools to circumvent a security measure. You can brag all what you want on internet about a crack you've made, but the moment you publish even a clue on how to crack something, a DMCA can be sent to either put down the info from a website or to make you to desist (only if either you and/or the server are located, or have business, in the United States). [1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpzhxXkXEAIuDYz?format=png&name=900x900 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpzhxXkXEAIuDYz?format=png&name=... Edit: modder is a 26 years old male living in Belgium (https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/1341230631913541633/photo/1 https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/134123063191354163...)
CyberRabbi 6y ago
I fully support the right to repair. I am a tinkerer myself. After looking into the details of a few of these cases I don’t believe Nintendo is in the wrong. A lot of these so-called hackers who have been targeted by Nintendo do this stuff in bad faith. They end up using the result of their efforts to build businesses based on pirating Nintendo content. Once they get caught they will nearly always lie through their teeth about their illegal business activities and claim they are innocent open-source hackers or whatever. It’s really deceptive and more offensive to me as someone who legitimately likes to tinker. For the most part I disagree with the DMCA anti-circumvention law but in nearly every case I’ve seen the people being targeted were doing much more than just selling mod chips.
- javajosh 6y ago
  >hey end up using the result of their efforts to build businesses based on pirating Nintendo content. Cite?
  - CyberRabbi 6y ago
    The Team Xecuter case comes to mind: > These defendants lined their pockets by stealing and selling the intellectual property of other video-game developers–even going so far as to make customers pay a licensing fee to play stolen games, https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-members-notorious-videogame-piracy-group-team-xecuter-custody https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-members-notorious-v...
- Kaze404 6y ago
  This is completely wrong. Neimod was in fact so against piracy that there's accounts of him banning people from the 3dsdev IRC simply for trying to jump-start the 3ds homebrew scene back then.
javajosh 6y ago
>Because a private company has no right to tell me what to do with the hardware and software I legally bought from them. Interestingly, Nintendo's explicit message was not that the hacking was wrong, but that the sharing of the hacking was wrong, because sharing the hack encourages piracy on a larger scale. It's hard to argue with that logic, TBH. And I actually admire their soft touch approach. My sense is that this is not that big of a deal, to Nintendo or anyone else. The platform, the physicality of "normal" distribution, plus the general inability of people to successfully mod their stuff, all favors Nintendo naturally. Seems like a tempest in a teapot, and if anything, I don't think it harms Nintendo's reputation at all (modulo sensationalist headlines).
- zucker42 6y ago
  > It's hard to argue with that logic, TBH. If you can't come up with an argument against that then you're not trying hard enough. The most obvious is that sharing a mod is free speech and ought to be protected as such. It's also unclear how mods contribute to copyright infringement in any meaningful way. I'm having trouble finding details about exactly what Neimod's mods entailed, but most mods I have experience with require an existing copy of the game.
  - javajosh 6y ago
    Information products require artificial scarcity to be economically viable. If freedom of speech gives individuals a license to say anything in any medium, then this means that artificial scarcity is inconsistent with free speech. If artificial scarcity is immoral, then all information products are immoral. (Note that as a practical matter I suspect that Nintendo only cares about "hacking" insofar as it undermines sales. I can't see why they would care about people modifying the games or equipment they own. I can totally see why they would care if someone invented an SD card cartridge for the 3DS that allows you to run every game ever written from it. Such a device, if mass produced and sold for profit, is clearly intended for piracy. Moreover, its easy to see how such a device is parasitic on the platform itself, so that if Nintendo didn't do something about it then there won't be a Nintendo.)

t0astbread 6y ago

I'm not aware of legal definitions but to me that sounds like stalking. Friendly contact would be an email or a phone call or talking to them at a public event but not setting up a team of field agents to follow someone and track their habits, then threaten with legal action at their door. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking: > Stalking is unwanted and/or repeated surveillance by an individual or group toward another person. Stalking behaviors are interrelated to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person or monitoring them. > According to a 2002 report by the U.S. National Center for Victims of Crime, "virtually any unwanted contact between two people that directly or indirectly communicates a threat or places the victim in fear can be considered stalking", although in practice the legal standard is usually somewhat stricter.

rriepe 6y ago

You're missing the recent Nintendo news, maybe. They've been copyright-striking streamers who play their games. They earned in a couple months the reputation that companies like EA and Blizzard took years to earn.

areoform 6y ago

There is more to the story, https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/1341230631913541633 https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/134123063191354163... The idea that someone modifying hardware and software they legally purchased for the sake of their curiosity - something once called tinkering, would lead to private investigators dig up details, follow the person around, and try and interview their family members etc for pressure points is disturbing. We typically do this for natsec, a private company doing it for a video game that's of little to no consequence in the grand scheme is fundamentally disturbing.

luch 6y ago
Well, sorry to break it for you but private companies have done this for decades. Rupert Murdoch's Pirates is a fantastic book on the subject: https://www.amazon.fr/Murdochs-Pirates-hacking-Ruperts-skullduggery-ebook/dp/B009VA1NVU https://www.amazon.fr/Murdochs-Pirates-hacking-Ruperts-skull... Basically pay-for-TV companies went ballistic in the 90s' and 00s' against hackers, and people died in the process.
shanemlk 6y ago
I'm sure if this person just enjoyed tinkering on the hardware in their office and not spreading code for intellectual property they don't own, we wouldn't be here.

zucker42 6y ago

They are threatening to use their size and legal savvy to pressure a prosecutor to bring charges against him. At least that's how I interpret "mutually acceptable agreement with Neimod to discontinue hacking of Nintendo systems/products as opposed to pursuing a criminal referral".

praptak 6y ago

Because the right to privacy is a human right and the corporation did not respect it. Yes, there are reasons which can limit the right to privacy but protecting corporate profit is not one of them.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]