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The mRNA vaccines certainly look like a break-through in vaccine technology and with that technology now being used, it should be a good base for future vaccine

by _ph_ 6y ago

The mRNA vaccines certainly look like a break-through in vaccine technology and with that technology now being used, it should be a good base for future vaccines. However I think the biggest change society in the west should take from Covid-19 is better disease fighting preparations. A lot of countries managed to avoid Covid-19 almost alltogether. All nations should learn from this. There are plenty of steps to be taken which could mostly prevent the catastrophic results of Covid-19 so the 9 months it took now to get an approved vaccine would have been an acceptable waiting time. - reporting of the initial outbreak in Wuhan was too slow, but still, many countries acted in time. - whenever a local outbreak of a similar new disease is reported, all countries should immideately go on an alert level, so that when the disease starts to spread, they can act immediately. If efficient reactions had been taken in January, a lot of things had been easier. - of course watch international travel closely. If you close down flights, close down all travels. It doesn't make sense to ban flights from China, when the virus was coming to the US from Italy. It doesn't make sense to ban EU travellers but allow them to enter relaying via Turkey. Even better: don't ban flight travel, but test on arrival, make a short quarantine mandatory, that is more effective. - lock down quickly and hard where neccessary, especial with local outbreaks and the by far biggest elephant in the room: - better hygene overall. Everyone should own proper masks, FFP2 masks should be stock piled by the government in generous amounts. Going forward, if you have symptoms of any infectious disease, wear a fucking mask! Even if it is the common cold, there is absolutely no justification to spread them to strangers. Even if it is not a deadly pandemic, infectious diseases could be reduced considerably by masks and hand sanitizing/washing. The yearly flu is deadly enough, there are no reasons to let it spread so freely.

marvin 6y ago
I almost can't believe we were laughed and scoffed at for wearing a mask in March. Whether we had a respiratory infection or not. My biggest takeaway from the epidemic is that herd conformity is a ridiculously powerful force. Never underestimate it.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  I was in Taiwan in 2013 and there it is absolutely common to wear a mask in public. Also, at the entrance of the 101 tower, there is a mall which had hand sanitizers at every entrance. Both things should become standard at all larger venues and would help a lot with all kind of infectious diseases. I also hope, it becomes the new default to stay at home and work from there, if you have any symptoms. I don't know how many colds is picked up in the office in previous years.
- grandpoobah 6y ago
  I remember when our public health officials told us not to wear masks. Those same public health officials (Fauci) are now in interviews expressing disbelief and shock that people would choose not to wear masks - calling them science deniers even. My biggest takeaway from the epidemic is that government officials not only think it's ok to lie to the people in the name of the greater good, they also think gaslighting us is the appropriate way to deal with our skepticism towards them.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Yes, it was the one most prominent mistake in dealing with the pandemic, that there was no clear statement in favor of masks at the beginning. Only partially justifiable by the justified fear, that there would not be enough masks for medical personal. All the involved should be harshly critisized for that. However this should not be taken as an excuse to deny all good scientific information we have received and the right measures that have been recommended, especially the overly late committment to masks.
    - daniellarusso 6y ago
      I agree, it shouldn’t, but it really undermines their credibility. At the end of the day, these are all still political animals. We still don’t have readily available N95 masks for ‘normal’ prices from reputable vendors.
      - _ph_ 6y ago
novaRom 6y ago
Your assumption is everyone will follow that rules which is how we know now is not true. There always will be deniers and rule breakers, so even a very rigorous policy will not work as intended to stop the spread completely. Even not every country will follow those rules - look at today's Switzerland where ski resorts are open right now and full with tourists from neighboring countries.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  No, I don't assume everyone will follow the rules. But if more people would follow the rules with a bit of discipline, things would be much better. As shown in Asian countries, which mostly don't have a Covid-19 problem. My list wasn't meant as preventing Covid-19 or similar diseases completely, but like things we can do to make the next pandemic a lesser problem in those months during which we wait for the vaccine. Not as a replacement for a vaccine, which always will the the one long-term solution to a pandemic. One more thing towards rules: it really depends on a society agreeing. Like most societies agree that people should wear pants on the street, woman even shirts. There might be people breaking these rules, but overall society managed to make this a very infrequent thing.
  - polote 6y ago
    > But if more people would follow the rules with a bit of discipline, things would be much better. As shown in Asian countries, which mostly don't have a Covid-19 problem How do you know they have less case because people follow the rules ? I have been in Cambodia and Thailand and people don't really follow the rules there and there is barely any case
polote 6y ago
> If efficient reactions had been taken in January, a lot of things had been easier. What would have been easier? Germany reacted quickly and now have a lot of death > of course watch international travel closely. If you close down flights, close down all travels How do you close borders like the France - Switzerland that a lot of people cross everyday to go to work? > lock down quickly and hard where neccessary, especial with local outbreaks What do you do after the lockdown if you were not able to make it to to 0 cases? > Going forward, if you have symptoms of any infectious disease, wear a fucking mask there is still no proof that mask wearing did reduce the transmission of covid you make it sounds like you have all the answers but that's not that easy
- _ph_ 6y ago
  I don't claim to have all the answers, but these things could have been done and reduced the impact of the pandemic. How do I know this? Because it has been done by quite a few countries which did not have as much of a problem with the pandemic as the west had. Take Korea, Taiwan, New Sealand, Vietname, there are probably others. Japan also did much better than the west. A few comments to the points you noted. - Germany reacted at the end of February (I am from Germany), which was pretty late considering the international outbreaks, there were quite a few infections in Germany during February. But for the first wave, Germany reacted just in time to avoid a lot of deaths (<10k), but completely failed at preventing the 2nd wave. But even the first lockdown might have been prevented by acting in early february. Carnival was allowed to take place and it was one major outbreak, the other was Ischg in Austria. - Borders to France and Swizerland had been eventually closed. When it was pretty late. But I was more referring to the US reaction, which banned travel from China only and much later (to late) from Europe, which is still in place, but allow travel via Turkey, which is what all Europeans going to the US are using. - If you handle local outbreaks quickly, you can get infections down to 0 in the affected region. - There is plenty of evidence, that masks reduce the transmission of Covid-19, but I was also speaking in a general sense, as I said "any infectious disease". There is no need to spread the cold or flu as quickly as we used to do. As far as I know, since the pandemic, the flu numbers are down a lot, as hygene works.
  - 6y ago
driverdan 6y ago
You're ignoring the biggest high level problem in the US: leadership that ignores science. If we had political leaders that made their decisions based on science and research we wouldn't be in such a big mess. Without that leadership the changes you listed won't happen.
valarauko 6y ago
The problem I see with your recommendations are that they're highly COVID specific. In hindsight so much of this seems obvious - masks, effective targetted lockdowns, restrict travel, stockpiling medical equipment, etc. These are commonsense observations clear to observers in January 2020 - but they come with very considerable costs. The effectiveness of each of these measures is also nebulous, and how much we weigh them has also changed. How effective any of these measures will be against the next pandemic is also unclear. Next time it may not be a respiratory illness.

by _ph_ 6y ago

marvin 6y ago

I almost can't believe we were laughed and scoffed at for wearing a mask in March. Whether we had a respiratory infection or not. My biggest takeaway from the epidemic is that herd conformity is a ridiculously powerful force. Never underestimate it.

_ph_ 6y ago
I was in Taiwan in 2013 and there it is absolutely common to wear a mask in public. Also, at the entrance of the 101 tower, there is a mall which had hand sanitizers at every entrance. Both things should become standard at all larger venues and would help a lot with all kind of infectious diseases. I also hope, it becomes the new default to stay at home and work from there, if you have any symptoms. I don't know how many colds is picked up in the office in previous years.
grandpoobah 6y ago
I remember when our public health officials told us not to wear masks. Those same public health officials (Fauci) are now in interviews expressing disbelief and shock that people would choose not to wear masks - calling them science deniers even. My biggest takeaway from the epidemic is that government officials not only think it's ok to lie to the people in the name of the greater good, they also think gaslighting us is the appropriate way to deal with our skepticism towards them.
- _ph_ 6y ago
  Yes, it was the one most prominent mistake in dealing with the pandemic, that there was no clear statement in favor of masks at the beginning. Only partially justifiable by the justified fear, that there would not be enough masks for medical personal. All the involved should be harshly critisized for that. However this should not be taken as an excuse to deny all good scientific information we have received and the right measures that have been recommended, especially the overly late committment to masks.
  - daniellarusso 6y ago
    I agree, it shouldn’t, but it really undermines their credibility. At the end of the day, these are all still political animals. We still don’t have readily available N95 masks for ‘normal’ prices from reputable vendors.
    - _ph_ 6y ago

novaRom 6y ago

Your assumption is everyone will follow that rules which is how we know now is not true. There always will be deniers and rule breakers, so even a very rigorous policy will not work as intended to stop the spread completely. Even not every country will follow those rules - look at today's Switzerland where ski resorts are open right now and full with tourists from neighboring countries.

_ph_ 6y ago
No, I don't assume everyone will follow the rules. But if more people would follow the rules with a bit of discipline, things would be much better. As shown in Asian countries, which mostly don't have a Covid-19 problem. My list wasn't meant as preventing Covid-19 or similar diseases completely, but like things we can do to make the next pandemic a lesser problem in those months during which we wait for the vaccine. Not as a replacement for a vaccine, which always will the the one long-term solution to a pandemic. One more thing towards rules: it really depends on a society agreeing. Like most societies agree that people should wear pants on the street, woman even shirts. There might be people breaking these rules, but overall society managed to make this a very infrequent thing.
- polote 6y ago
  > But if more people would follow the rules with a bit of discipline, things would be much better. As shown in Asian countries, which mostly don't have a Covid-19 problem How do you know they have less case because people follow the rules ? I have been in Cambodia and Thailand and people don't really follow the rules there and there is barely any case

polote 6y ago

> If efficient reactions had been taken in January, a lot of things had been easier. What would have been easier? Germany reacted quickly and now have a lot of death > of course watch international travel closely. If you close down flights, close down all travels How do you close borders like the France - Switzerland that a lot of people cross everyday to go to work? > lock down quickly and hard where neccessary, especial with local outbreaks What do you do after the lockdown if you were not able to make it to to 0 cases? > Going forward, if you have symptoms of any infectious disease, wear a fucking mask there is still no proof that mask wearing did reduce the transmission of covid you make it sounds like you have all the answers but that's not that easy

_ph_ 6y ago
I don't claim to have all the answers, but these things could have been done and reduced the impact of the pandemic. How do I know this? Because it has been done by quite a few countries which did not have as much of a problem with the pandemic as the west had. Take Korea, Taiwan, New Sealand, Vietname, there are probably others. Japan also did much better than the west. A few comments to the points you noted. - Germany reacted at the end of February (I am from Germany), which was pretty late considering the international outbreaks, there were quite a few infections in Germany during February. But for the first wave, Germany reacted just in time to avoid a lot of deaths (<10k), but completely failed at preventing the 2nd wave. But even the first lockdown might have been prevented by acting in early february. Carnival was allowed to take place and it was one major outbreak, the other was Ischg in Austria. - Borders to France and Swizerland had been eventually closed. When it was pretty late. But I was more referring to the US reaction, which banned travel from China only and much later (to late) from Europe, which is still in place, but allow travel via Turkey, which is what all Europeans going to the US are using. - If you handle local outbreaks quickly, you can get infections down to 0 in the affected region. - There is plenty of evidence, that masks reduce the transmission of Covid-19, but I was also speaking in a general sense, as I said "any infectious disease". There is no need to spread the cold or flu as quickly as we used to do. As far as I know, since the pandemic, the flu numbers are down a lot, as hygene works.
- 6y ago

driverdan 6y ago

You're ignoring the biggest high level problem in the US: leadership that ignores science. If we had political leaders that made their decisions based on science and research we wouldn't be in such a big mess. Without that leadership the changes you listed won't happen.

valarauko 6y ago

The problem I see with your recommendations are that they're highly COVID specific. In hindsight so much of this seems obvious - masks, effective targetted lockdowns, restrict travel, stockpiling medical equipment, etc. These are commonsense observations clear to observers in January 2020 - but they come with very considerable costs. The effectiveness of each of these measures is also nebulous, and how much we weigh them has also changed. How effective any of these measures will be against the next pandemic is also unclear. Next time it may not be a respiratory illness.