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I’d really be curious to see how far we could push this. Cobalt is an essential part of lithium-ion batteries. 70% of the world’s cobalt is mined in the Democr

I’d really be curious to see how far we could push this. Cobalt is an essential part of lithium-ion batteries. 70% of the world’s cobalt is mined in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, much of it in forced conditions. So I guess we have three options: go without lithium-ion batteries, enforce a minimum standard of labor conditions in the DRC by any means necessary, or just try not to think about it too much. Is it any wonder that we picked door number 3?

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Not to discount your point, but wouldn't a fourth option be to buy from the 30% of suppliers not in the DRC?
- philwelch 6y ago
  That doesn’t really scale. Minerals are where they are in the earth’s crust, and at some point we need to go to DR Congo if we want enough cobalt to go around. Especially if we want stuff like electric cars. And that’s just one example of one mineral. There is the notion of the “resource curse” —countries rich in natural resources often stay poor because why develop a modern economy when you can just become a warlord and force children to mine diamonds or cobalt for you? The flip side of this is the part where we in the developed world don’t like to think too much about where these basic resources come from.
  - fedreserved 6y ago
    Where's the cia when you need them to topple a dictator who oppresses with slave labor
    - baybal2 6y ago
      You usually cannot "topple" a rogue regime, unlike a civil government. Dictators almost always have secret police, and domestic espionage agencies in every corner. This is why I do not subscribe to notion that Western spies are trying to stage revolutions in repressive regimes for a simple reason that they can not.
      - pietrovismara 6y ago
        Oh but they did. Time and time again. Given the pattern there's no reason to think western powers are not meddling with foreign affairs today.
      - pydry 6y ago
        They failed in Venezuela recently but that didn't stop them from trying. There was a democratic Senator who ascribed the failure to Trump's incompetence. Most of Latin America had had a US backed coup at some point in its history. Many very successful. Pinochet, etc.
        baybal2 6y ago
        And this is a very good example of what I said. US only ever managed to use staged coups to unseat civil governments, and failed miserably with tougher targets like real totalitarian regimes. The only notable exception I think was Noriega, who was a joke of a dictator, and possibly even put in power with American help in the first place.
        CountSessine 6y ago
        Except that the spooks failed even when it came to unseating Noriega because they had to call in the military to stage an invasion. The only two cases that I’m aware of where the US clandestinely toppled a foreign government were Chile and Iran - and apparently even the Iranian operation was mostly driven by the British secret service. And by all accounts, Chile was more of a nudge than a push.
    - pydry 6y ago
      Out toppling a democratically elected government that threatened US investors' profit margins. I'm pretty sure they're stirring up trouble in xinjiang also. Pitting ethnic minorities in hard to defend mountainous border regions against central government is a standard divide and conquer empire tactic. The British Empire used it a lot in Asia, for instance.
    - philwelch 6y ago
      That’s door number 2. I’m not opposed to going through door number 2.
- steve_taylor 6y ago
  Fifth option would be to develop alternative tech that doesn’t use cobalt.
  - derangedHorse 6y ago
    I think the OP was using the false dilemma fallacy to strengthen his argument: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
happycube 6y ago
... or, we could nudge companies to go to LFP batteries, which can be made without cobalt, and have much better safety. It takes a lot more to make them blow up. The energy density's a bit lower though, but not so low you can't make a Model 3 with it for the Chinese market...
- ianai 6y ago
  They’ve made phones and devices so thin that packing in a larger sized battery to help make up for the difference should be manageable.
mgh2 6y ago
Again, I don’t think people understand the difference here and are trying to derail the argument in favour of Apple. Being “forced to seek employment out of poverty” is different than being forced to labor due to your ethnic background. Necessity vs. discrimination. Ex: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-devel... It is a very simple and clear difference, yet it is a common tactic for a debater to change the narrative and manipulate the argument away to prove some other point. Honestly, you remind me of “Thank you for smoking”. I will not be surprised if this is how lobbying or CCP’s campaigns work.
- austhrow743 6y ago
  Weird that you make up your own source and counter it as if the person you were replying to had used it, then go on about how they use sleazy debating tactics. I think there's a proverb about a kettle that might apply. Here https://www.freetheslaves.net/where-we-work/congo/ https://www.freetheslaves.net/where-we-work/congo/ and here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Democ... Both talk about people being forced to mine. Not they're poor and need to eat. Debt bondage, bogus criminal charges then sent to the mines to work as prisoners, or just straight up forced to at gun point by militias/gangs. You know, actual forced labour.
  - mgh2 6y ago
    Thanks for those sources. Yep, those examples are more in par with the case at hand. To answer the original post then, education is key: "knowledge is power, power is responsibility". The issue here is that Apple is employing tactics with lobbying, PR, marketing (sort of brainwashing) to make you "try not to think about it too much", so yeah it is "no wonder people pick door number 3". The hypocrisy that fuels the hype and demand for its brand is what consumers should be aware of.
- mlindner 6y ago
  You linked to Google instead of the guardian.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

Not to discount your point, but wouldn't a fourth option be to buy from the 30% of suppliers not in the DRC?

philwelch 6y ago
That doesn’t really scale. Minerals are where they are in the earth’s crust, and at some point we need to go to DR Congo if we want enough cobalt to go around. Especially if we want stuff like electric cars. And that’s just one example of one mineral. There is the notion of the “resource curse” —countries rich in natural resources often stay poor because why develop a modern economy when you can just become a warlord and force children to mine diamonds or cobalt for you? The flip side of this is the part where we in the developed world don’t like to think too much about where these basic resources come from.
- fedreserved 6y ago
  Where's the cia when you need them to topple a dictator who oppresses with slave labor
  - baybal2 6y ago
    You usually cannot "topple" a rogue regime, unlike a civil government. Dictators almost always have secret police, and domestic espionage agencies in every corner. This is why I do not subscribe to notion that Western spies are trying to stage revolutions in repressive regimes for a simple reason that they can not.
    - pietrovismara 6y ago
      Oh but they did. Time and time again. Given the pattern there's no reason to think western powers are not meddling with foreign affairs today.
    - pydry 6y ago
      They failed in Venezuela recently but that didn't stop them from trying. There was a democratic Senator who ascribed the failure to Trump's incompetence. Most of Latin America had had a US backed coup at some point in its history. Many very successful. Pinochet, etc.
      - baybal2 6y ago
        And this is a very good example of what I said. US only ever managed to use staged coups to unseat civil governments, and failed miserably with tougher targets like real totalitarian regimes. The only notable exception I think was Noriega, who was a joke of a dictator, and possibly even put in power with American help in the first place.
        CountSessine 6y ago
        Except that the spooks failed even when it came to unseating Noriega because they had to call in the military to stage an invasion. The only two cases that I’m aware of where the US clandestinely toppled a foreign government were Chile and Iran - and apparently even the Iranian operation was mostly driven by the British secret service. And by all accounts, Chile was more of a nudge than a push.
  - pydry 6y ago
    Out toppling a democratically elected government that threatened US investors' profit margins. I'm pretty sure they're stirring up trouble in xinjiang also. Pitting ethnic minorities in hard to defend mountainous border regions against central government is a standard divide and conquer empire tactic. The British Empire used it a lot in Asia, for instance.
  - philwelch 6y ago
    That’s door number 2. I’m not opposed to going through door number 2.
steve_taylor 6y ago
Fifth option would be to develop alternative tech that doesn’t use cobalt.
- derangedHorse 6y ago
  I think the OP was using the false dilemma fallacy to strengthen his argument: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

happycube 6y ago

... or, we could nudge companies to go to LFP batteries, which can be made without cobalt, and have much better safety. It takes a lot more to make them blow up. The energy density's a bit lower though, but not so low you can't make a Model 3 with it for the Chinese market...

ianai 6y ago
They’ve made phones and devices so thin that packing in a larger sized battery to help make up for the difference should be manageable.

mgh2 6y ago

Again, I don’t think people understand the difference here and are trying to derail the argument in favour of Apple. Being “forced to seek employment out of poverty” is different than being forced to labor due to your ethnic background. Necessity vs. discrimination. Ex: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-devel... It is a very simple and clear difference, yet it is a common tactic for a debater to change the narrative and manipulate the argument away to prove some other point. Honestly, you remind me of “Thank you for smoking”. I will not be surprised if this is how lobbying or CCP’s campaigns work.

austhrow743 6y ago
Weird that you make up your own source and counter it as if the person you were replying to had used it, then go on about how they use sleazy debating tactics. I think there's a proverb about a kettle that might apply. Here https://www.freetheslaves.net/where-we-work/congo/ https://www.freetheslaves.net/where-we-work/congo/ and here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Democ... Both talk about people being forced to mine. Not they're poor and need to eat. Debt bondage, bogus criminal charges then sent to the mines to work as prisoners, or just straight up forced to at gun point by militias/gangs. You know, actual forced labour.
- mgh2 6y ago
  Thanks for those sources. Yep, those examples are more in par with the case at hand. To answer the original post then, education is key: "knowledge is power, power is responsibility". The issue here is that Apple is employing tactics with lobbying, PR, marketing (sort of brainwashing) to make you "try not to think about it too much", so yeah it is "no wonder people pick door number 3". The hypocrisy that fuels the hype and demand for its brand is what consumers should be aware of.
mlindner 6y ago
You linked to Google instead of the guardian.