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Your argument assumes the non-Chinese justice system in question is actually just in its enforcement of the laws and fair in its sentencing. If that system is

by mike_h 6y ago

Your argument assumes the non-Chinese justice system in question is actually just in its enforcement of the laws and fair in its sentencing. If that system is the US, we can question those assumptions along a few lines: - racial bias in enforcement and sentencing - inhumane prison terms in general - unjust laws e.g. the war on drugs - the failure of the society to provide entire classes of people with sufficient non-criminal routes out of poverty and despair

Alupis 6y ago
What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton[1][2][3]? You bring up issues with the US Justice System, and then use that as an excuse to blanket over everything the CCP does? How does that work, exactly? [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/china-accused-of-forcing-570000-people-to-pick-cotton-in-xinjiang-idUSL8N2IV38N https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/c... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-cotton-imports-from-china-producer-xpcc-citing-xinjiang-slave-labor-idUSKBN28C38V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-... [3] https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/china-s-forced-labor-cotton-market-dredges-grim-memories-american-n1251563 https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/china-s-forced-labor-cotton-ma...
- mike_h 6y ago
  I doubt anyone in this thread is arguing that forced labor would be ok anywhere. But hypocrisy is its own destructive force in the world, and there’s a weird meme in Western culture whereby unsavory behavior in China is somehow a sign of evil while the West is somehow more pure. The respective body counts and the number of people in jail (absolute and per-capita) make this highly questionable.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    The article is talking about something very specific. Muslims being forced into labor camps against their will. The US has it's share of problems - nobody sane would deny that. But, what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree. Even the very numbers that come from the CCP regarding their prison population are extremely suspect - they do not allow independent auditing, and we discover new slave labor camps like the ones in this article nearly every other day it seems. Flatly, the numbers put forth by the CCP are not to be trusted because the CCP has done nothing to make the numbers trustworthy. Bringing things up from the US' past, nearly a century ago or longer, or equivocating paid voluntary prison labor with mandatory forced labor based on religion is flatly wrong.
    - quicklime 6y ago
      > what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree If this is true in practice, then the US prison labor problem is much more tractable than trying to fix an issue in a far off land where they don't allow open discourse. It wouldn't be a disaster if Americans focused their attention on their many domestic issues first, which they have direct control over. But currently there is very little open discourse in the US about prison labor, especially compared to the amount of discourse about Xinjiang. This doesn't excuse China for the things they are doing wrong.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China, that the CCP denies exist despite overwhelming evidence that continues to flourish.
        sellyme 6y ago
        I think you've lost sight of the original context of this thread. Here's the top comment: > As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. Of course Americans can and should decry Chinese slave labour camps, but you've just finished explaining why the American slave labour issue is a lot easier to address and deal with, so if they can't get that one sorted out I don't have high hopes for their chances of enforcing legal responsibility when dealing with China.
        Alupis 6y ago
        The context of the thread is perfectly clear. Some people believe as long as the US underpays prisoners convicted of crimes, the CCP gets carte blanche to imprison a million people because of their religion, and force them into labor camps. Or did I misread this entire thread? And making companies like Apple legally responsible for their supply chain labor will do nothing to stem the flurry of actual slave labor camps seemingly sprouting up all over China. Chinese companies will continue to use the free labor and compete on an uneven global playing field, so long as the CCP sees a benefit.
- wolverine876 6y ago
  I agree. The attempts to change the subject to the U.S. are classic whataboutist arguments, and transparently weak ones. It's hard to imagine what's wrong with your points that you would be downvoted.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton So, sorta like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Penitentiary

by mike_h 6y ago

Alupis 6y ago

What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton[1][2][3]? You bring up issues with the US Justice System, and then use that as an excuse to blanket over everything the CCP does? How does that work, exactly? [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/china-accused-of-forcing-570000-people-to-pick-cotton-in-xinjiang-idUSL8N2IV38N https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/c... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-cotton-imports-from-china-producer-xpcc-citing-xinjiang-slave-labor-idUSKBN28C38V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-... [3] https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/china-s-forced-labor-cotton-market-dredges-grim-memories-american-n1251563 https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/china-s-forced-labor-cotton-ma...

mike_h 6y ago
I doubt anyone in this thread is arguing that forced labor would be ok anywhere. But hypocrisy is its own destructive force in the world, and there’s a weird meme in Western culture whereby unsavory behavior in China is somehow a sign of evil while the West is somehow more pure. The respective body counts and the number of people in jail (absolute and per-capita) make this highly questionable.
- Alupis 6y ago
  The article is talking about something very specific. Muslims being forced into labor camps against their will. The US has it's share of problems - nobody sane would deny that. But, what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree. Even the very numbers that come from the CCP regarding their prison population are extremely suspect - they do not allow independent auditing, and we discover new slave labor camps like the ones in this article nearly every other day it seems. Flatly, the numbers put forth by the CCP are not to be trusted because the CCP has done nothing to make the numbers trustworthy. Bringing things up from the US' past, nearly a century ago or longer, or equivocating paid voluntary prison labor with mandatory forced labor based on religion is flatly wrong.
  - quicklime 6y ago
    > what the US does do that the CCP does not is allow the open discourse of it's problems, and to change it's policies if people agree If this is true in practice, then the US prison labor problem is much more tractable than trying to fix an issue in a far off land where they don't allow open discourse. It wouldn't be a disaster if Americans focused their attention on their many domestic issues first, which they have direct control over. But currently there is very little open discourse in the US about prison labor, especially compared to the amount of discourse about Xinjiang. This doesn't excuse China for the things they are doing wrong.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      The US doesn't need to be perfect before US citizens can decry Religious Slave Labor Camps in China, that the CCP denies exist despite overwhelming evidence that continues to flourish.
      - sellyme 6y ago
        I think you've lost sight of the original context of this thread. Here's the top comment: > As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. Of course Americans can and should decry Chinese slave labour camps, but you've just finished explaining why the American slave labour issue is a lot easier to address and deal with, so if they can't get that one sorted out I don't have high hopes for their chances of enforcing legal responsibility when dealing with China.
        Alupis 6y ago
        The context of the thread is perfectly clear. Some people believe as long as the US underpays prisoners convicted of crimes, the CCP gets carte blanche to imprison a million people because of their religion, and force them into labor camps. Or did I misread this entire thread? And making companies like Apple legally responsible for their supply chain labor will do nothing to stem the flurry of actual slave labor camps seemingly sprouting up all over China. Chinese companies will continue to use the free labor and compete on an uneven global playing field, so long as the CCP sees a benefit.
wolverine876 6y ago
I agree. The attempts to change the subject to the U.S. are classic whataboutist arguments, and transparently weak ones. It's hard to imagine what's wrong with your points that you would be downvoted.
coldtea 6y ago
>What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton So, sorta like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Penitentiary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_Penitentiary