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So you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation that does not respect the rule of law and indeed brazenly celebrates that in pub

by harry8 6y ago

So you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation that does not respect the rule of law and indeed brazenly celebrates that in public in a way nobody could miss by making sure a criminal is its most famous ever employee? And this doesn't come up in every single news article about the FBI? This doesn't come up to discredit every single piece of FBI evidence in court? I would believe that kind of thing about the Soviet Union. Or some other dictatorship. And this is happening, right now, in the USA, largely ignored by media, by politicians, by courts, with massive BLM protests, you say? >Many Americans do hate him. Many Americans believe the world is flat. Tragically what "Many Americans" believe means nothing about credibility.

woodruffw 6y ago
> you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation No. What I said was that Hoover was a criminal, and that his reign at the FBI was marked by illegality. Whether or not the present FBI is a criminal organization is a separate claim that I'm not going to make right now. > And this doesn't come up in every single news article about the FBI? This doesn't come up to discredit every single piece of FBI evidence in court? It's an established fact about the FBI, the same way that the Tuskegee Experiment is an established fact about the CDC. Both agencies (claim to) have reformed, so there's nothing to "bring up" in court. The fact that you don't personally know about it doesn't mean it's ignored. It's taught in US high schools as a critical part of America's cold war hysteria as well as the federal government's reaction to the civil rights movement. > Tragically what "Many Americans" believe means nothing about credibility. You asked specifically whether Americans hold Hoover in contempt, not for the factual content of their beliefs. I think that they're right to hate him, but the base factuality of their beliefs doesn't change the fact that his public image is negative.
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  Do you have any thoughts on why the FBI slow walked the Jeffrey Epstein investigation since the 1990s? Why they still haven't raided his ranch property in New Mexico? Why they seem to have done nothing with the extensive cache of CDs they raided from his Manhattan townhouse?
  - woodruffw 6y ago
    Not particularly, no. I think there's a world of difference between an established part of the FBI's history and (what would be) mostly speculation on my part.
arminiusreturns 6y ago
Are you seriously defending the FBI and Hoover right now on the basis of the fact that newspapers dont openly criticise it and its history in every article on the topic? Lets be serious here, the FBI continues to be a criminal organization like many other three letters: due to a top down compromise system... but why do I even bother with someone who has already slyly tried to dismiss the topic as surely a conspiracy theory (the implication being all conspiracy theories are false and/or batshit crazy). If your bias and immovable opinion weren't so obvious I might tell you more about things like the mafias (including Trumps mentor, Roy Cohn) part in the Hoover compromise, and other things. edit: I got wooshed... https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23 https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23
- AndrewBissell 6y ago
  > someone who has already slyly tried to dismiss the topic as surely a conspiracy theory (the implication being all conspiracy theories are false and/or batahit crazy). The parent is clearly lampooning this perspective, not advancing it unironically. But I can kind of understand mistaking it for the real thing, the insistence on denying the possibility of conspiracies has reached some pretty serious Poe's Law proportions.
  - arminiusreturns 6y ago
    Oh my, I feel a bit ridiculous now. Thank you for the whoosh warning. Side note: I am convinced this is a side effect of me being way too serious, I need to learn to lighten up a bit.
    - jessaustin 6y ago
      It's kind of discouraging when the TLAs don't even bother showing up... we all just end up talking past each other!
  - harry8 6y ago
    No. Absolutely not. The incredulity is 100% genuine. Just seeing how everyone reacts looking at and seeing how absolutely fucking insane it is to have the FBI and their powers in a building named "J Edgar Hoover" Someone said the fbi reformed since those days of criminality. Why would anyone believe that while they continue to celebrate J Edgar Hoover. While they go to work to protect the rule of law to a building named J. Edgar Hoover. Why would any judge take the word of any FBI agent when they've covered up criminal behaviour, and performed it and lied about it instead of arresting J. Edgar Hoover the first second they became aware of what he was? They said they weren't criminals when Hoover was in charge. They lied. They continue to exult Hoover while claiming they aren't criminals anymore. Who actually isn't feeling sick at the idea of believing that? Hoover is the biggest FBI hero. A vicious criminal thug running the FBI as a criminal conspiracy is the FBI's biggest hero. Says so right there on their HQ. It's something that's impossible to get your head around. 30 years ago. No sign of it changing? The FBI flagrantly advertise their lack of respect for the rule of law. That's on all of us.

by harry8 6y ago

woodruffw 6y ago

> you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation No. What I said was that Hoover was a criminal, and that his reign at the FBI was marked by illegality. Whether or not the present FBI is a criminal organization is a separate claim that I'm not going to make right now. > And this doesn't come up in every single news article about the FBI? This doesn't come up to discredit every single piece of FBI evidence in court? It's an established fact about the FBI, the same way that the Tuskegee Experiment is an established fact about the CDC. Both agencies (claim to) have reformed, so there's nothing to "bring up" in court. The fact that you don't personally know about it doesn't mean it's ignored. It's taught in US high schools as a critical part of America's cold war hysteria as well as the federal government's reaction to the civil rights movement. > Tragically what "Many Americans" believe means nothing about credibility. You asked specifically whether Americans hold Hoover in contempt, not for the factual content of their beliefs. I think that they're right to hate him, but the base factuality of their beliefs doesn't change the fact that his public image is negative.

AndrewBissell 6y ago
Do you have any thoughts on why the FBI slow walked the Jeffrey Epstein investigation since the 1990s? Why they still haven't raided his ranch property in New Mexico? Why they seem to have done nothing with the extensive cache of CDs they raided from his Manhattan townhouse?
- woodruffw 6y ago
  Not particularly, no. I think there's a world of difference between an established part of the FBI's history and (what would be) mostly speculation on my part.

arminiusreturns 6y ago

Are you seriously defending the FBI and Hoover right now on the basis of the fact that newspapers dont openly criticise it and its history in every article on the topic? Lets be serious here, the FBI continues to be a criminal organization like many other three letters: due to a top down compromise system... but why do I even bother with someone who has already slyly tried to dismiss the topic as surely a conspiracy theory (the implication being all conspiracy theories are false and/or batshit crazy). If your bias and immovable opinion weren't so obvious I might tell you more about things like the mafias (including Trumps mentor, Roy Cohn) part in the Hoover compromise, and other things. edit: I got wooshed... https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23 https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23

AndrewBissell 6y ago
> someone who has already slyly tried to dismiss the topic as surely a conspiracy theory (the implication being all conspiracy theories are false and/or batahit crazy). The parent is clearly lampooning this perspective, not advancing it unironically. But I can kind of understand mistaking it for the real thing, the insistence on denying the possibility of conspiracies has reached some pretty serious Poe's Law proportions.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  Oh my, I feel a bit ridiculous now. Thank you for the whoosh warning. Side note: I am convinced this is a side effect of me being way too serious, I need to learn to lighten up a bit.
  - jessaustin 6y ago
    It's kind of discouraging when the TLAs don't even bother showing up... we all just end up talking past each other!
- harry8 6y ago
  No. Absolutely not. The incredulity is 100% genuine. Just seeing how everyone reacts looking at and seeing how absolutely fucking insane it is to have the FBI and their powers in a building named "J Edgar Hoover" Someone said the fbi reformed since those days of criminality. Why would anyone believe that while they continue to celebrate J Edgar Hoover. While they go to work to protect the rule of law to a building named J. Edgar Hoover. Why would any judge take the word of any FBI agent when they've covered up criminal behaviour, and performed it and lied about it instead of arresting J. Edgar Hoover the first second they became aware of what he was? They said they weren't criminals when Hoover was in charge. They lied. They continue to exult Hoover while claiming they aren't criminals anymore. Who actually isn't feeling sick at the idea of believing that? Hoover is the biggest FBI hero. A vicious criminal thug running the FBI as a criminal conspiracy is the FBI's biggest hero. Says so right there on their HQ. It's something that's impossible to get your head around. 30 years ago. No sign of it changing? The FBI flagrantly advertise their lack of respect for the rule of law. That's on all of us.