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>Hoover was a criminal Are you really saying that the FBI has and continues to celebrate a criminal [1] and their own criminal behaviour as most exemplary? For

by harry8 6y ago

>Hoover was a criminal Are you really saying that the FBI has and continues to celebrate a criminal [1] and their own criminal behaviour as most exemplary? For nearly half a century now? And no bi-partisan political rebuke? And are not treated with total contempt by every adult in the USA and every court in the world? How is that remotely possible? Surely this is a conspiracy theory? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover_Building https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover_Building

woodruffw 6y ago
Yes. Hoover was a criminal in the literal sense of the word: he repeatedly and brazenly violated US laws, and fostered a culture of illegality in the FBI. His crimes are well attested by both his own records and the official records of the FBI. The FBI is a law enforcement organization; anybody who knows this history of LEOs in the US shouldn't be particularly surprised that they defend their own. Many Americans do hate him. But it's important to note that Hoover's criminality did not extend to the average White American: his efforts focused on Black Americans, gays, and anybody sufficiently "radical" by the standards of cold war America. Ronald Reagan also has buildings named after him, mind you.
- harry8 6y ago
  So you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation that does not respect the rule of law and indeed brazenly celebrates that in public in a way nobody could miss by making sure a criminal is its most famous ever employee? And this doesn't come up in every single news article about the FBI? This doesn't come up to discredit every single piece of FBI evidence in court? I would believe that kind of thing about the Soviet Union. Or some other dictatorship. And this is happening, right now, in the USA, largely ignored by media, by politicians, by courts, with massive BLM protests, you say? >Many Americans do hate him. Many Americans believe the world is flat. Tragically what "Many Americans" believe means nothing about credibility.
  - woodruffw 6y ago
    > you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation No. What I said was that Hoover was a criminal, and that his reign at the FBI was marked by illegality. Whether or not the present FBI is a criminal organization is a separate claim that I'm not going to make right now. > And this doesn't come up in every single news article about the FBI? This doesn't come up to discredit every single piece of FBI evidence in court? It's an established fact about the FBI, the same way that the Tuskegee Experiment is an established fact about the CDC. Both agencies (claim to) have reformed, so there's nothing to "bring up" in court. The fact that you don't personally know about it doesn't mean it's ignored. It's taught in US high schools as a critical part of America's cold war hysteria as well as the federal government's reaction to the civil rights movement. > Tragically what "Many Americans" believe means nothing about credibility. You asked specifically whether Americans hold Hoover in contempt, not for the factual content of their beliefs. I think that they're right to hate him, but the base factuality of their beliefs doesn't change the fact that his public image is negative.
    - AndrewBissell 6y ago
      Do you have any thoughts on why the FBI slow walked the Jeffrey Epstein investigation since the 1990s? Why they still haven't raided his ranch property in New Mexico? Why they seem to have done nothing with the extensive cache of CDs they raided from his Manhattan townhouse?
      - woodruffw 6y ago
        Not particularly, no. I think there's a world of difference between an established part of the FBI's history and (what would be) mostly speculation on my part.
  - arminiusreturns 6y ago
    Are you seriously defending the FBI and Hoover right now on the basis of the fact that newspapers dont openly criticise it and its history in every article on the topic? Lets be serious here, the FBI continues to be a criminal organization like many other three letters: due to a top down compromise system... but why do I even bother with someone who has already slyly tried to dismiss the topic as surely a conspiracy theory (the implication being all conspiracy theories are false and/or batshit crazy). If your bias and immovable opinion weren't so obvious I might tell you more about things like the mafias (including Trumps mentor, Roy Cohn) part in the Hoover compromise, and other things. edit: I got wooshed... https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23 https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23
boomboomsubban 6y ago
I think he gets a pass as Kissinger was a fan.
kthxbye123 6y ago
Man, you think that's bad, just wait until you hear about how Americans treated the legacy of a gang of violent slave-owning traitors who tried to destroy the country and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans in the process
michaelmrose 6y ago
This is like arguing that confederate generals actions weren't treasonous because they weren't charged and look there are military bases named after them! Harry S Truman wrote during his presidency: "We want no Gestapo or secret police. FBI is tending in that direction. They are dabbling in sex-life scandals and plain blackmail He was a villain by any reasonable accounting whose exploits are at this point well known and his moral deviance, bigotry, hatefulness, contempt not so much merely for the letter of the law as for its spirit and purpose. A contempt for justice as it might be understood by anyone other than a straight, white, conservative, republican, man that ultimately overshadows his accomplishments.

by harry8 6y ago

woodruffw 6y ago

Yes. Hoover was a criminal in the literal sense of the word: he repeatedly and brazenly violated US laws, and fostered a culture of illegality in the FBI. His crimes are well attested by both his own records and the official records of the FBI. The FBI is a law enforcement organization; anybody who knows this history of LEOs in the US shouldn't be particularly surprised that they defend their own. Many Americans do hate him. But it's important to note that Hoover's criminality did not extend to the average White American: his efforts focused on Black Americans, gays, and anybody sufficiently "radical" by the standards of cold war America. Ronald Reagan also has buildings named after him, mind you.

harry8 6y ago
So you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation that does not respect the rule of law and indeed brazenly celebrates that in public in a way nobody could miss by making sure a criminal is its most famous ever employee? And this doesn't come up in every single news article about the FBI? This doesn't come up to discredit every single piece of FBI evidence in court? I would believe that kind of thing about the Soviet Union. Or some other dictatorship. And this is happening, right now, in the USA, largely ignored by media, by politicians, by courts, with massive BLM protests, you say? >Many Americans do hate him. Many Americans believe the world is flat. Tragically what "Many Americans" believe means nothing about credibility.
- woodruffw 6y ago
  > you're saying the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a criminal organisation No. What I said was that Hoover was a criminal, and that his reign at the FBI was marked by illegality. Whether or not the present FBI is a criminal organization is a separate claim that I'm not going to make right now. > And this doesn't come up in every single news article about the FBI? This doesn't come up to discredit every single piece of FBI evidence in court? It's an established fact about the FBI, the same way that the Tuskegee Experiment is an established fact about the CDC. Both agencies (claim to) have reformed, so there's nothing to "bring up" in court. The fact that you don't personally know about it doesn't mean it's ignored. It's taught in US high schools as a critical part of America's cold war hysteria as well as the federal government's reaction to the civil rights movement. > Tragically what "Many Americans" believe means nothing about credibility. You asked specifically whether Americans hold Hoover in contempt, not for the factual content of their beliefs. I think that they're right to hate him, but the base factuality of their beliefs doesn't change the fact that his public image is negative.
  - AndrewBissell 6y ago
    Do you have any thoughts on why the FBI slow walked the Jeffrey Epstein investigation since the 1990s? Why they still haven't raided his ranch property in New Mexico? Why they seem to have done nothing with the extensive cache of CDs they raided from his Manhattan townhouse?
    - woodruffw 6y ago
      Not particularly, no. I think there's a world of difference between an established part of the FBI's history and (what would be) mostly speculation on my part.
- arminiusreturns 6y ago
  Are you seriously defending the FBI and Hoover right now on the basis of the fact that newspapers dont openly criticise it and its history in every article on the topic? Lets be serious here, the FBI continues to be a criminal organization like many other three letters: due to a top down compromise system... but why do I even bother with someone who has already slyly tried to dismiss the topic as surely a conspiracy theory (the implication being all conspiracy theories are false and/or batshit crazy). If your bias and immovable opinion weren't so obvious I might tell you more about things like the mafias (including Trumps mentor, Roy Cohn) part in the Hoover compromise, and other things. edit: I got wooshed... https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23 https://youtu.be/QKVS8TMork4?t=23

boomboomsubban 6y ago

I think he gets a pass as Kissinger was a fan.

kthxbye123 6y ago

Man, you think that's bad, just wait until you hear about how Americans treated the legacy of a gang of violent slave-owning traitors who tried to destroy the country and killed hundreds of thousands of Americans in the process

michaelmrose 6y ago

This is like arguing that confederate generals actions weren't treasonous because they weren't charged and look there are military bases named after them! Harry S Truman wrote during his presidency: "We want no Gestapo or secret police. FBI is tending in that direction. They are dabbling in sex-life scandals and plain blackmail He was a villain by any reasonable accounting whose exploits are at this point well known and his moral deviance, bigotry, hatefulness, contempt not so much merely for the letter of the law as for its spirit and purpose. A contempt for justice as it might be understood by anyone other than a straight, white, conservative, republican, man that ultimately overshadows his accomplishments.