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> people who insisted that it would be better for Britain to leave the onerous regulatory regime of the EU You mean the electorate.

by hayd 6y ago

danudey 6y ago
In fairness, the electorate was repeatedly lied to and misinformed about the situation by the people who actually insisted it would be better, baselessly - that is, politicians.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  Indeed. If Brexit was such a good idea Team Leave could simply have told the truth. They didn't. Ever. At no point have any of their many promises - to stay in the Single Market, to eliminate red tape, to pay an extra £350m a week to the NHS, to be able to trade globally without restrictions, to continue Erasmus membership, and on and on and on - been in any danger of coming true. So the voters voted for the most ridiculous lies, and apparently that's "democracy." No, it isn't. It's fraud - plain and simple.
  - guntars 6y ago
    Even if people are misinformed, it’s still democracy. There’s simply no other way. Maybe it will destroy the country, but at least they will have done it themselves.
    - CodeMage 6y ago
      You're right that it's technically democracy. You're wrong that there's simply no other way. I don't know what that other way is, but the society needs to keep evolving. The current state of democracy in countries like UK and US brings to mind that famous Churchill quote: "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." The common conclusion seems to be "oh, okay, guess that's it, then" rather than "maybe it's time to try something we haven't yet".
      - worik 6y ago
        ...and perhaps we could make it better
    - worik 6y ago
      You are confusing democracy and elections. Elections are some times a democratic institution, but not always. Democracy is government for and by the people. Considered decision making is a very important part of it. By fetishising voting proponents of referendums cast aside all the important bits of democracy - consultation, consideration, listening to other views, expressing dissent.... and replace it with a brutal contest of propaganda. Voting is important, but it is not the most improtant part of a democracy and if all yu have is voting and elections you do not have democracy.
      - guntars 6y ago
        Those are some nice and lofty ideals, but I’m talking about the implementation and not the ideal. It’s implemented according the constitution which is just a piece of paper and as such cannot make anyone consider or consult about anything. Instead, it does the next best thing and says “One man, one vote*” regardless of how misinformed anyone thinks they are. There are no provisions for “the electorate was misled” scenario because nobody can be trusted to determine that. So you don’t think that’s democracy? Well, that’s totally fine, it doesn’t care what you call it. To me, if people just voted for whoever was the sexiest, that would still be democracy.
        worik 6y ago
        What you are describing is not democracy.
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      I disagree with the sibling, it's not technically democracy to coerce a vote through fraud. If you tell people R will give them S, and they vote to get S, but it turns out R doesn't give S at all and you knew it all along; that doesn't mean people voted to get R. They voted to get S, giving them R is not therefore "technically" democracy (or any other weasel way of saying it).
    - mithr 6y ago
      I don't think it's quite as clear as that. Let's start with the simple case: in a democracy, people vote to affect policy. There's a referendum, and the will of the majority of the people voting in it determines the outcome. Easy. Now, going in a more sci-fi direction, as a thought experiment: imagine that an evil mastermind invented mind control, and used it to ensure the majority of people voted a certain way in said referendum. Technically, I guess this would still be a democracy -- but in name only. In reality, the will of a single person determines the outcome. Pulling back into reality, obviously we don't have mind control, nor an evil mastermind concocting schemes. We do know that if trusted people in positions of power abuse that power to outright lie, and spend very large sums of money to pursue a specific goal, then the will of these people will end up having a noticeable effect on the will of the population. If someone manipulated you and convinced you of something that wasn't true for their own hidden goals, is it still really your will that you're enacting by voting for it? or have you been tricked into enacting someone else's will? So while by a surface definition of democracy, any of the above processes are democratic because they allow people to vote, a functional democracy relies on a well-informed populace -- we knew this even in Jefferson's time ("wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government").
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  Notably it was a very small proportion of MPs, the large majority backed Remain, including ex-PM May. The current PM was one of the relatively few political voices supporting Brexit. Seems that with enough money from oligarchs you can make enough lies stick to swing a simple majority. We have to try and move on from this; the next decade is going to make some rich people incredibly wealthy at the expensive of many, many people becoming poorer in the UK - not just by financial measures, but in terms of opportunity, health, quality of life. It's grim.

> people who insisted that it would be better for Britain to leave the onerous regulatory regime of the EU You mean the electorate.

by hayd 6y ago

> people who insisted that it would be better for Britain to leave the onerous regulatory regime of the EU You mean the electorate.

danudey 6y ago

In fairness, the electorate was repeatedly lied to and misinformed about the situation by the people who actually insisted it would be better, baselessly - that is, politicians.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
Indeed. If Brexit was such a good idea Team Leave could simply have told the truth. They didn't. Ever. At no point have any of their many promises - to stay in the Single Market, to eliminate red tape, to pay an extra £350m a week to the NHS, to be able to trade globally without restrictions, to continue Erasmus membership, and on and on and on - been in any danger of coming true. So the voters voted for the most ridiculous lies, and apparently that's "democracy." No, it isn't. It's fraud - plain and simple.
- guntars 6y ago
  Even if people are misinformed, it’s still democracy. There’s simply no other way. Maybe it will destroy the country, but at least they will have done it themselves.
  - CodeMage 6y ago
    You're right that it's technically democracy. You're wrong that there's simply no other way. I don't know what that other way is, but the society needs to keep evolving. The current state of democracy in countries like UK and US brings to mind that famous Churchill quote: "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." The common conclusion seems to be "oh, okay, guess that's it, then" rather than "maybe it's time to try something we haven't yet".
    - worik 6y ago
      ...and perhaps we could make it better
  - worik 6y ago
    You are confusing democracy and elections. Elections are some times a democratic institution, but not always. Democracy is government for and by the people. Considered decision making is a very important part of it. By fetishising voting proponents of referendums cast aside all the important bits of democracy - consultation, consideration, listening to other views, expressing dissent.... and replace it with a brutal contest of propaganda. Voting is important, but it is not the most improtant part of a democracy and if all yu have is voting and elections you do not have democracy.
    - guntars 6y ago
      Those are some nice and lofty ideals, but I’m talking about the implementation and not the ideal. It’s implemented according the constitution which is just a piece of paper and as such cannot make anyone consider or consult about anything. Instead, it does the next best thing and says “One man, one vote*” regardless of how misinformed anyone thinks they are. There are no provisions for “the electorate was misled” scenario because nobody can be trusted to determine that. So you don’t think that’s democracy? Well, that’s totally fine, it doesn’t care what you call it. To me, if people just voted for whoever was the sexiest, that would still be democracy.
      - worik 6y ago
        What you are describing is not democracy.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    I disagree with the sibling, it's not technically democracy to coerce a vote through fraud. If you tell people R will give them S, and they vote to get S, but it turns out R doesn't give S at all and you knew it all along; that doesn't mean people voted to get R. They voted to get S, giving them R is not therefore "technically" democracy (or any other weasel way of saying it).
  - mithr 6y ago
    I don't think it's quite as clear as that. Let's start with the simple case: in a democracy, people vote to affect policy. There's a referendum, and the will of the majority of the people voting in it determines the outcome. Easy. Now, going in a more sci-fi direction, as a thought experiment: imagine that an evil mastermind invented mind control, and used it to ensure the majority of people voted a certain way in said referendum. Technically, I guess this would still be a democracy -- but in name only. In reality, the will of a single person determines the outcome. Pulling back into reality, obviously we don't have mind control, nor an evil mastermind concocting schemes. We do know that if trusted people in positions of power abuse that power to outright lie, and spend very large sums of money to pursue a specific goal, then the will of these people will end up having a noticeable effect on the will of the population. If someone manipulated you and convinced you of something that wasn't true for their own hidden goals, is it still really your will that you're enacting by voting for it? or have you been tricked into enacting someone else's will? So while by a surface definition of democracy, any of the above processes are democratic because they allow people to vote, a functional democracy relies on a well-informed populace -- we knew this even in Jefferson's time ("wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government").
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
Notably it was a very small proportion of MPs, the large majority backed Remain, including ex-PM May. The current PM was one of the relatively few political voices supporting Brexit. Seems that with enough money from oligarchs you can make enough lies stick to swing a simple majority. We have to try and move on from this; the next decade is going to make some rich people incredibly wealthy at the expensive of many, many people becoming poorer in the UK - not just by financial measures, but in terms of opportunity, health, quality of life. It's grim.