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Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Forced labour takes different forms, which includes

• api 6y ago
  A person held against their will and forced to do labor is a slave whether they're called that or not, especially if they have committed no legitimate offense for which such a punishment could be justified. As near as I can tell the Uighurs' "offense" is being of a different ethnicity and being majority Muslim. What the Chinese are doing here is very close to what the USA did in its first century with African slaves.
  • strogonoff 6y ago
    You are right in your last paragraph. The situation in Xinjang is such that for an Uyghur it is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state says. Any work done with involvement of Uyghur population by default is a situation of forced labour. That’s what the article says. However, using the term “slavery” gives CCP ammunition to fight back. They can point out that Uyghurs are paid. They can claim they are free to refuse (we know they will not out of fear of retribution, but I suspect the need for such nuance only hurts the case).
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • berdario 6y ago
      > The situation in Xinjang is such that for an Uyghur it is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state says ... > The situation anywhere is such that for anyone it is in fact impossible to decline to do what the state says FTFY As long as you have a police force and prisons, you'll never be able to NOT do what the state says. Now, it's a matter of: - do you disagree with what the state does? - do you agree with what the state does? And all the positions between these 2 extremes. On one end, you have anarchists (and what the state would call terrorists) On the other end, you have statists (and what the anarchists would call authoritarians/fascists/wumao)
      • AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        You are obviously eliding the distinction between a state where officials can arbitrarily order you to do anything and a state bound by the rule of law and a constitution enforced by independent courts that limits what the executive and legislature can order you to do.
        • berdario 6y ago
          Yes, because that's a separate/orthogonal (and much more controversial point). I just don't want anarchists to be fooled into supporting the warmongering US propaganda. i.e. do you agree that the state should have the power to do what's described above? I was leaning to say more "no". I basically used to be more of an anarchist. That was probably (also) because I was disappointed in our cronyist, capitalist, disfunctional governments... I'm now finding myself as more of a statist, after realizing how much good is being accomplished in China, and how arbitrary and ridiculous are the falsehoods that the US propaganda is pushing.
    • alisonkisk 6y ago
      Any criticism will give CCP ammunition to fight back in bad faith. They can say "US government oppressed its colored people too" which is true. By refusing to criticize them, you are just doing their work for them and giving them a free pass.
      • deleted 6y ago
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• jordan_curve 6y ago
  That comparison could just as easily be said to belittle what actual forced labor is. I don’t think it’s helpful to compare which atrocity is worse. There are many societies that have had lots of norms or laws protecting slaves from various forms of harm. That’s of course not to say slavery was acceptable in those societies on any level, but many slaves lived more comfortable lives than those who eventually died of malnutrition at Auchwitz-II.
  • strogonoff 6y ago
    Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. Equating forced labour as a whole with slavery, which is frequently used to refer to chattel slavery that existed in the US (HN audience is to large degree US-based) before 1865, may seem inconsiderate to those whose ancestors had to endure the latter. What is reported to be happening to Muslims now in Xinjang, with reeducation camps and all, is not the same as treating a human as another piece of personal property. It is both not as bad, and yet at the same time somehow even worse, as this time a whole culture is being systematically eliminated.
    • sli 6y ago
      > Forced labour in prisons is legal in the US right now. The Constitution refers to it directly as slavery. The 13th says "except as punishment for a crime." Folks may want to mince words about it because prisoners are technically paid (pennies per hour), if they are even getting paid in the first place. It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Plus, prisoners are on the hook financially for a lot of their sentence, so that money is basically spent before they even get it.
      • stickfigure 6y ago
        > It was major news that prisoners were sent to fight fires in California for little to no pay. Just to make sure nobody is confused by this, because the subject comes up a lot - prisoner firefighers are volunteers.
• baybal2 6y ago
  > Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). It makes no difference, both are the same in being the most exemplary form of class warfare, and are equally terrible. Trying to draw a line in between them is a very petty attempt to claim that one is somehow less worse, or even somehow more legitimate than other.
  • judge2020 6y ago
    Knowing the details of the current situation and differentiating it from previous forms of slavery does matter, but, as you say, it's by no means the most important thing we should be focusing on and discussing in the comments.
• nomoreusernames 6y ago
  was? you do know that slave markets exist today right? also isis sold the daughters and wives of minority groups deemed to be infidels.
• diegoholiveira 6y ago
  Some people in this world is treated as a property by his own government.
• diebeforei485 6y ago
  "Modern Slavery" is a term of art. It has legal definitions in many countries including the US[1]. 1. https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/ https://www.state.gov/what-is-modern-slavery/
• baskire 6y ago
  The CCP is currently committing a genocide. The UN even declared such [1]. I actually think the CCP treats them worse than many in the usa and Europe treated their slaves back in the day. [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/04/887239225/china-suppression-of-uighur-minorities-meets-u-n-definition-of-genocide-report-s https://www.npr.org/2020/07/04/887239225/china-suppression-o...
  • monocasa 6y ago
    That article doesn't say what you're asserting that it does. Adrian Zenz doesn't speak for the UN.
  • Aunche 6y ago
    That's not what your source says at all. One person who works for a anti-communist organization thinks that it meets the UN definition of genocide. This sort of malicious misinterpretation of China is why people think it's 100x more evil and absurd than it actually is. Another example is China's banning a few Winnie the Pooh memes got warped into China banning Winnie the Pooh altogether. Anyone who stepped foot into China would know that's ridiculous.
• downrightmike 6y ago
  They are kept in camps, monitored constantly, have no privacy, are searched constantly and on top of that, they are forced to work or go to detention. That is slavery. There's also the problem with them getting gutted for the organ transplants that China's own doctors have reported to be 4 times higher than they should be for the population size. So it is work, or go to detention and possibly get gutted.
  • JoshTko 6y ago
    What sources are you getting the organ transplants information from?
    • mgh2 6y ago
      Speculation from multiple sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyZschwFN-c&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyZschwFN-c&ab_channel=SkyNe... Extrapolation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
    • hcurtiss 6y ago
      Odd to me that your question -- a genuine question -- would be downvoted.
      • zenexer 6y ago
        Probably because it’s received quite a bit of attention. If you’ve been reading HN for a while, particularly articles about the recent injustices in China, you’ve likely already encountered such claims.
        • deleted 6y ago
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    • TimTheTinker 6y ago
      Here's one: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...
• Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  That's why we have the definition of "modern slavery". It could be interesting would journalists on the Gruniad have to give up using macs then. "We rely on our suppliers sharing our values and complying with all laws at all times. We expect our business partners to treat people with dignity and respect and not to engage in practices associated with forced labor, even if not illegal in their location"
• Siira 6y ago
  I don’t see how forced labor is not a typical example of slavery. This is not “precision,” it’s apologism.
• slumpt_ 6y ago
  And so we tread on, repeating history, justified by subtle semantic arguments on the internet. Humans are disappointing, though I am encouraged by the abundance of others calling this out the same.
• rukuu001 6y ago
  It’s slavery with window dressing. ‘CCP defenders’ and other apologists will make bad-faith arguments no matter how precise you are.
• Clubber 6y ago
  >Slavery is when a person is treated as a property of another person. That's called chattel slavery. Just because something isn't chattel slavery doesn't mean it isn't still slavery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery "Slavery relies heavily on the enslaved person being intimidated either by the threat of violence or some other method of abuse. In chattel slavery, the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner."
• coldtea 6y ago
  >Equating slavery with forced labour belittles the gravity and awfulness of what actual slavery is (or was). Doesn't matter. That's a crap argument. First, because enlarging some things (which necessitates belittling others) can help put an end to them. Second, because forced labor and slavery are not that far off anyway. Both are depriving a person of their agency and steal their time and effort. Third, because slavery itself was historically a spectrum. There were "domestic slaves" (sorta like Stephen in Django), cooks, nannys, teachers and "butler" types in charge of estate work in ancient Rome and Greece, etc.) that were treated and worked more or less like modern employees (except from the forced labor), even slaves in management of other slaves, and slaves that were chained, worked to the bone, beaten, raped, etc.