5 ms·

Designs for residential houses and appliances that ensure waste heat goes outdoors in the summer, and stays indoors in the winter. (And vice versa: refrigerator

Designs for residential houses and appliances that ensure waste heat goes outdoors in the summer, and stays indoors in the winter. (And vice versa: refrigerators and freezers that take advantage of cold outdoor air in the winter, rather than using electricity to run compressors.)

xchaotic 6y ago
when you think it through, it's simply better to keep heat/electricity usage to a minimum, and just keep stuff better insulated overall. And I would say this area of problems is still being worked on, but you know physics gets in the way, and iterating in housing is a lot slower than software...
Nextgrid 6y ago
Regarding refrigeration appliances, this is a solved problem. Most commercial refrigerators and ACs have a separate condensing unit placed outdoors (which also houses the compressor so its own heat doesn't affect the indoor location which is a problem when cooling). The problem is that most homes aren't build with this in mind and don't provide a place to run the refrigerant lines (nor comes with the lines built-in) especially for the fridge.
- meowster 6y ago
  When I build my next house, I am doing this for the refrigerator, not for the heat, but for the noise.
- imgabe 6y ago
  It also adds a lot of complexity if you want to change anything. Want to remodel your kitchen and move the fridge to the other side? Now you have to reroute refrigerant lines. Want to add a second fridge in the garage? Is your outdoor compressor large enough to handle it? You have to run new lines to it, maybe replace the compressor, or add a second one. Way more expensive and complex than just buying a refrigerator at Home Depot and plugging it in.
canofbars 6y ago
When you think about how complex it would be, it makes very little sense to bother putting so much work and money in to such a little savings which also means you can no longer move your stuff around or easily replace your fridge with a different model. Your time and money would be better spent on buying solar panels and batteries. And once you have those it would be better spent on investing in solar farms.
poulsbohemian 6y ago
Real estate agent here... so I see a lot of houses and get asked a lot of questions about houses... at the root of your inquiry, I see a couple things going on: 1) Builders at scale aren't willing to make these kinds of investments. They want standard designs that they can throw up as cheaply and quickly as possible. Frankly some of the developments I've seen in my area are just hideous - like if they had just run the streets the other direction people would have had view lots, but they were too effing cheap and lazy to even do that, let alone hire an actual architect. 2) Distribution networks of building supplies are ineffective and feels like a market ripe for disruption. Just because there exists some cool new material or energy-saving option out there in the world doesn't mean that one's local builders have access. So, whatever is available to them is what's going into local houses. 3) Consumer tastes. Human beings have notions about houses. Lots of humans like house designs that are conforming to local norms and traditions. So thermally efficient designs like below-ground homes often end up as outliers that don't sell particularly well to buyers who don't understand the benefits.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  I wonder if GP's problem could be approached through standardization of heat exchange piping? While people like to move the furniture and white goods around every now and then, usually the kitchen stays a kitchen and the bathroom stays a bathroom, because that's where the piping goes. And we already put all kinds of pipes and wiring in the walls. I imagine another set of piping could be run, meant specifically for moving the heat in and out, with standardized endpoints for appliances to hook into.
  - jhloa2 6y ago
    This is kind of the idea of variable refrigerant flow system which can heat, cool, and move heat from one space to another. Seems like an "easy" solution would be to add appliances to the system.
- gfxgirl 6y ago
  > like if they had just run the streets the other direction people would have had view lots Wouldn't that have allowed them to make more $$$$$$$ because places with a view sell for more than places without?
CyanLite2 6y ago
Hot water heaters are doing this. You can buy a hybrid hot water heater for around $1200 from your local hardware store. The crazy upside is it acts as an air-conditioner for your garage, and the heat exhaust is used to keep the tank of water warm. They're loud, but it pays for itself in a few years. I'm also surprised other homebuilders/designers haven't connected the a/c condenser heat exhaust to a centralized location for hot water tanks. I've seen a few people on YouTube do it however for their heated pools.
- yurishimo 6y ago
  My parents have two of these in the attic of their new house. I went up there over the summer and it was noticeably cooler than the garage where the access is. This is in the summer in Texas. They also put their HVAC into the attic and the entire house is insulated with spray foam, so the attic only a few degrees warmer than the house below it. I need to ask them what the energy bills were but I imagine they were low enough to prevent complaint.
jhayward 6y ago
With the prevalence of "planned unit development" style suburban housing design I've always been a little amazed that no AHJs require district heating/cooling solutions. Here in Texas they already require PUD-based water and wastewater so often the first developments in rural expansion of the cities have their own small water and wastewater treatment systems. Its a small step to run hot/cold water supply lines when you are using tax-free muni bonds to put in the streets and sewers already, and have to have a maintenance fee structure that operates the plant.
Jormundir 6y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation This already exists and is starting to gain popularity for new builds. It’s also not that expensive to retrofit, but is most effective when a home is sealed well.
fy20 6y ago
I think you are vastly over estimating how much energy appliances need, and how much waste heat that produces. A modern refrigerator for example can consume less than 1kW per day. The only common appliance that I can think of that produces a lot of unwanted heat would be a dryer. But instead of a gas dryer that sends all the waste heat outside, you could get a condenser dryer with a heat pump which consumes much less energy and hence produces much less heat. From a residential standpoint it doesn't really make sense.
- cma 6y ago
  *kWh
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  Excellent post. But you forgot the "oven-in-summer" :)
dragontamer 6y ago
Most of the people who know that are Architecture and/or Landscape people. Yeah, landscaping. You plant trees which have shade in the summer and lose their leaves in the winter. As such, it cools the house in the summer, and heats up the house in the winter. Talk to a few architecture / landscaping experts. They got plenty of ideas of how to optimize homes. EDIT: And then a technologist comes in, wonders who put this big tree in front of their roof. They cut down the tree, install 20% efficient solar panels and overall have to spend more energy cooling down their house in the summer... completely ignoring the thought and effort the architect and landscapers put towards the home.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  But I want sunlight in my living room, not shade!
nemetroid 6y ago
Cold pantries (i.e. pantries with a vent to the outside) certainly exist, my (Swedish) apartment has one. I believe they used to be common, but have fallen out of fashion. Its thermometer currently reads 6° C, so in winter it can more-or-less be used as a second refrigerator.
p1mrx 6y ago
In the 1940s, you could buy a refrigerator with a "butter conditioner" to keep butter at a spreadable 65°F. Basically a compartment in the wall with a thermostat and heater, warmer than the main fridge but colder than the room. Manufacturers killed the feature to reduce energy waste, instead of adding thicker insulation around the compartment.
drzaiusapelord 6y ago
I think one thing worth mentioning is that any hole to the outside of your home is a huge deal from a maintence perspective. Animals try to get in through the exhaust holes, the 'flashing' around them goes bad and lets in air, they clog up with dust and dirt, the louver spring holding them closed ages out and lets cold air in, animals nest in there if the louver or grill breaks or rusts, etc. Oh and if we consider things like air fryers, toaster overs, etc then you potentially have a fire situation with whatever dust or food crumbs that may get stuck in there, a bit like a dryer fire because of lint. I think no one wants a new hole in their home unless they can't avoid it. Its a hard sell all around I'm afraid. Not to mention the DIY spirit around electric appliances. They are such wonderful marvels because we can just buy them and plug them in! We don't need a credentialed professional running tubing or cutting through our walls to install them. A competitor asking for an exhaust port will simply get eaten up by the one not asking for it.
acd 6y ago
Great idea! There was a system in the late 1800, early 1900 in Sweden. There would be a ventilation whole from the outside leading to the cold storage area. But these seems to have been forgotten since the refrigerator was invented. We would need todo the same thing but more modern take with a heat exchanger/heat pumps. That would save gadzallions amount of energy used for cooling refrigerators. Depending on climate of course.
dharmab 6y ago
This is called a heat pump, and you will likely see this replace or augment traditional A/C and water heaters over the next 5-10 years. Unfortunately winter air is actually _too warm_ for heat pumps to use winter air for cooling! They use outside air for heating, year round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vU9x3dFMrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vU9x3dFMrU

xchaotic 6y ago

when you think it through, it's simply better to keep heat/electricity usage to a minimum, and just keep stuff better insulated overall. And I would say this area of problems is still being worked on, but you know physics gets in the way, and iterating in housing is a lot slower than software...

Nextgrid 6y ago

Regarding refrigeration appliances, this is a solved problem. Most commercial refrigerators and ACs have a separate condensing unit placed outdoors (which also houses the compressor so its own heat doesn't affect the indoor location which is a problem when cooling). The problem is that most homes aren't build with this in mind and don't provide a place to run the refrigerant lines (nor comes with the lines built-in) especially for the fridge.

meowster 6y ago
When I build my next house, I am doing this for the refrigerator, not for the heat, but for the noise.
imgabe 6y ago
It also adds a lot of complexity if you want to change anything. Want to remodel your kitchen and move the fridge to the other side? Now you have to reroute refrigerant lines. Want to add a second fridge in the garage? Is your outdoor compressor large enough to handle it? You have to run new lines to it, maybe replace the compressor, or add a second one. Way more expensive and complex than just buying a refrigerator at Home Depot and plugging it in.

canofbars 6y ago

When you think about how complex it would be, it makes very little sense to bother putting so much work and money in to such a little savings which also means you can no longer move your stuff around or easily replace your fridge with a different model. Your time and money would be better spent on buying solar panels and batteries. And once you have those it would be better spent on investing in solar farms.

poulsbohemian 6y ago

Real estate agent here... so I see a lot of houses and get asked a lot of questions about houses... at the root of your inquiry, I see a couple things going on: 1) Builders at scale aren't willing to make these kinds of investments. They want standard designs that they can throw up as cheaply and quickly as possible. Frankly some of the developments I've seen in my area are just hideous - like if they had just run the streets the other direction people would have had view lots, but they were too effing cheap and lazy to even do that, let alone hire an actual architect. 2) Distribution networks of building supplies are ineffective and feels like a market ripe for disruption. Just because there exists some cool new material or energy-saving option out there in the world doesn't mean that one's local builders have access. So, whatever is available to them is what's going into local houses. 3) Consumer tastes. Human beings have notions about houses. Lots of humans like house designs that are conforming to local norms and traditions. So thermally efficient designs like below-ground homes often end up as outliers that don't sell particularly well to buyers who don't understand the benefits.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
I wonder if GP's problem could be approached through standardization of heat exchange piping? While people like to move the furniture and white goods around every now and then, usually the kitchen stays a kitchen and the bathroom stays a bathroom, because that's where the piping goes. And we already put all kinds of pipes and wiring in the walls. I imagine another set of piping could be run, meant specifically for moving the heat in and out, with standardized endpoints for appliances to hook into.
- jhloa2 6y ago
  This is kind of the idea of variable refrigerant flow system which can heat, cool, and move heat from one space to another. Seems like an "easy" solution would be to add appliances to the system.
gfxgirl 6y ago
> like if they had just run the streets the other direction people would have had view lots Wouldn't that have allowed them to make more $$$$$$$ because places with a view sell for more than places without?

CyanLite2 6y ago

Hot water heaters are doing this. You can buy a hybrid hot water heater for around $1200 from your local hardware store. The crazy upside is it acts as an air-conditioner for your garage, and the heat exhaust is used to keep the tank of water warm. They're loud, but it pays for itself in a few years. I'm also surprised other homebuilders/designers haven't connected the a/c condenser heat exhaust to a centralized location for hot water tanks. I've seen a few people on YouTube do it however for their heated pools.

yurishimo 6y ago
My parents have two of these in the attic of their new house. I went up there over the summer and it was noticeably cooler than the garage where the access is. This is in the summer in Texas. They also put their HVAC into the attic and the entire house is insulated with spray foam, so the attic only a few degrees warmer than the house below it. I need to ask them what the energy bills were but I imagine they were low enough to prevent complaint.

jhayward 6y ago

With the prevalence of "planned unit development" style suburban housing design I've always been a little amazed that no AHJs require district heating/cooling solutions. Here in Texas they already require PUD-based water and wastewater so often the first developments in rural expansion of the cities have their own small water and wastewater treatment systems. Its a small step to run hot/cold water supply lines when you are using tax-free muni bonds to put in the streets and sewers already, and have to have a maintenance fee structure that operates the plant.

Jormundir 6y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation This already exists and is starting to gain popularity for new builds. It’s also not that expensive to retrofit, but is most effective when a home is sealed well.

fy20 6y ago

I think you are vastly over estimating how much energy appliances need, and how much waste heat that produces. A modern refrigerator for example can consume less than 1kW per day. The only common appliance that I can think of that produces a lot of unwanted heat would be a dryer. But instead of a gas dryer that sends all the waste heat outside, you could get a condenser dryer with a heat pump which consumes much less energy and hence produces much less heat. From a residential standpoint it doesn't really make sense.

cma 6y ago
*kWh
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
Excellent post. But you forgot the "oven-in-summer" :)

dragontamer 6y ago

Most of the people who know that are Architecture and/or Landscape people. Yeah, landscaping. You plant trees which have shade in the summer and lose their leaves in the winter. As such, it cools the house in the summer, and heats up the house in the winter. Talk to a few architecture / landscaping experts. They got plenty of ideas of how to optimize homes. EDIT: And then a technologist comes in, wonders who put this big tree in front of their roof. They cut down the tree, install 20% efficient solar panels and overall have to spend more energy cooling down their house in the summer... completely ignoring the thought and effort the architect and landscapers put towards the home.

Aeolun 6y ago
But I want sunlight in my living room, not shade!

nemetroid 6y ago

Cold pantries (i.e. pantries with a vent to the outside) certainly exist, my (Swedish) apartment has one. I believe they used to be common, but have fallen out of fashion. Its thermometer currently reads 6° C, so in winter it can more-or-less be used as a second refrigerator.

p1mrx 6y ago

In the 1940s, you could buy a refrigerator with a "butter conditioner" to keep butter at a spreadable 65°F. Basically a compartment in the wall with a thermostat and heater, warmer than the main fridge but colder than the room. Manufacturers killed the feature to reduce energy waste, instead of adding thicker insulation around the compartment.

drzaiusapelord 6y ago

I think one thing worth mentioning is that any hole to the outside of your home is a huge deal from a maintence perspective. Animals try to get in through the exhaust holes, the 'flashing' around them goes bad and lets in air, they clog up with dust and dirt, the louver spring holding them closed ages out and lets cold air in, animals nest in there if the louver or grill breaks or rusts, etc. Oh and if we consider things like air fryers, toaster overs, etc then you potentially have a fire situation with whatever dust or food crumbs that may get stuck in there, a bit like a dryer fire because of lint. I think no one wants a new hole in their home unless they can't avoid it. Its a hard sell all around I'm afraid. Not to mention the DIY spirit around electric appliances. They are such wonderful marvels because we can just buy them and plug them in! We don't need a credentialed professional running tubing or cutting through our walls to install them. A competitor asking for an exhaust port will simply get eaten up by the one not asking for it.

acd 6y ago

Great idea! There was a system in the late 1800, early 1900 in Sweden. There would be a ventilation whole from the outside leading to the cold storage area. But these seems to have been forgotten since the refrigerator was invented. We would need todo the same thing but more modern take with a heat exchanger/heat pumps. That would save gadzallions amount of energy used for cooling refrigerators. Depending on climate of course.

dharmab 6y ago

This is called a heat pump, and you will likely see this replace or augment traditional A/C and water heaters over the next 5-10 years. Unfortunately winter air is actually _too warm_ for heat pumps to use winter air for cooling! They use outside air for heating, year round. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vU9x3dFMrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vU9x3dFMrU