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>It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health.

by slg 6y ago

>It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health. The pandemic is disrupting people's routines, not the lockdowns. The idea that society would be functioning as normal without lockdowns is silly.

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twblalock 6y ago
> The idea that society would be functioning as normal without lockdowns is silly. Given the large number of people disobeying restrictions, even in California, it seems that society would be quite a bit more "normal" if people were allowed to behave as they wished. See also how people flocked back to bars and restaurants when they reopened, how people have been crowding shops and malls, etc.
- glogla 6y ago
  I'm not sure we've actually seen percentages, have we? Like, is 5 % of people disobeying restrictions? Or 50 %? I'm sure some people flocked, but for example in my friends circle, nobody did - of course, that's an anecdote which is why the numbers would be needed.
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Smaug123 6y ago
Porque no los dos? Lockdowns are disruptive (surely nobody could disagree with that); pandemics are disruptive (again, presumably nobody disagrees). The important question is to what extent the population is disrupted in the "lockdown" and "non-lockdown" scenarios, and what costs the society pays in human death, a collapsed economy, long-term health effects etc in the two cases. A reasonable discussion has to start by accepting that every course of action is shitty here! The task is to weigh up the amount of shit and the different qualities of the shit down each pathway; it'll help nobody to claim that one pathway is shining and clean.
- slg 6y ago
  >Porque no los dos? Fine, then mention both. The comment I was replying to blamed it all on the lockdowns even though the problem would exist without lockdowns.
  - Smaug123 6y ago
    I really don't think it did: > I think the more important point, somewhat ironically made on HN, is the critical effects of sleeplessness and promoting healthy sleep as a national public health priority. It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health. Does this really blame it all on lockdowns? All I see is "lockdowns are damaging", which is certainly true whatever your political beliefs.
    - slg 6y ago
      >another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines There is not even a hint in the comment that there is another cause to this disruptions besides lockdowns.
irq11 6y ago
Everything you wrote is your opinion, whereas it’s been extensively documented that lockdowns are leading to a huge surge in depression and suicidal ideation. Just one example: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6932a1-H.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6932a1-H.pdf Here’s a longitudinal study, showing that lockdowns were directly associated with increased depression in children: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33298552/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33298552/ Rates of depression in Wuhan decreased after the lockdown ended: https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20201112/anxiety-depression-decreased-in-wuhan-after-covid19-lockdown-eased https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20201112/anxiety-depr... A study showing that rates of depression tripled during lockdown in the UK: https://www.newswise.com/coronavirus/depression-and-anxiety-tripled-during-the-height-of-lockdown-new-study-shows https://www.newswise.com/coronavirus/depression-and-anxiety-... At some point, facts have to matter.
nradov 6y ago
Your claim has been mostly disproven. Society is functioning largely as normal in Florida and other states which have decided not to impose state level lockdown rules. (Whether that's a good idea or not is a separate issue.)
- slg 6y ago
  I don't know how exactly you quantify "disrupting a population’s routines", but Florida's unemployment is roughly double what it was a year ago. It doesn't seem like everything is normal there.

by slg 6y ago

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twblalock 6y ago

> The idea that society would be functioning as normal without lockdowns is silly. Given the large number of people disobeying restrictions, even in California, it seems that society would be quite a bit more "normal" if people were allowed to behave as they wished. See also how people flocked back to bars and restaurants when they reopened, how people have been crowding shops and malls, etc.

glogla 6y ago
I'm not sure we've actually seen percentages, have we? Like, is 5 % of people disobeying restrictions? Or 50 %? I'm sure some people flocked, but for example in my friends circle, nobody did - of course, that's an anecdote which is why the numbers would be needed.

deleted 6y ago

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Smaug123 6y ago

Porque no los dos? Lockdowns are disruptive (surely nobody could disagree with that); pandemics are disruptive (again, presumably nobody disagrees). The important question is to what extent the population is disrupted in the "lockdown" and "non-lockdown" scenarios, and what costs the society pays in human death, a collapsed economy, long-term health effects etc in the two cases. A reasonable discussion has to start by accepting that every course of action is shitty here! The task is to weigh up the amount of shit and the different qualities of the shit down each pathway; it'll help nobody to claim that one pathway is shining and clean.

slg 6y ago
>Porque no los dos? Fine, then mention both. The comment I was replying to blamed it all on the lockdowns even though the problem would exist without lockdowns.
- Smaug123 6y ago
  I really don't think it did: > I think the more important point, somewhat ironically made on HN, is the critical effects of sleeplessness and promoting healthy sleep as a national public health priority. It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health. Does this really blame it all on lockdowns? All I see is "lockdowns are damaging", which is certainly true whatever your political beliefs.
  - slg 6y ago
    >another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines There is not even a hint in the comment that there is another cause to this disruptions besides lockdowns.

irq11 6y ago

Everything you wrote is your opinion, whereas it’s been extensively documented that lockdowns are leading to a huge surge in depression and suicidal ideation. Just one example: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6932a1-H.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6932a1-H.pdf Here’s a longitudinal study, showing that lockdowns were directly associated with increased depression in children: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33298552/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33298552/ Rates of depression in Wuhan decreased after the lockdown ended: https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20201112/anxiety-depression-decreased-in-wuhan-after-covid19-lockdown-eased https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20201112/anxiety-depr... A study showing that rates of depression tripled during lockdown in the UK: https://www.newswise.com/coronavirus/depression-and-anxiety-tripled-during-the-height-of-lockdown-new-study-shows https://www.newswise.com/coronavirus/depression-and-anxiety-... At some point, facts have to matter.

nradov 6y ago

Your claim has been mostly disproven. Society is functioning largely as normal in Florida and other states which have decided not to impose state level lockdown rules. (Whether that's a good idea or not is a separate issue.)

slg 6y ago
I don't know how exactly you quantify "disrupting a population’s routines", but Florida's unemployment is roughly double what it was a year ago. It doesn't seem like everything is normal there.