6 ms·

The body of TFA rightly points out that we don’t actually have evidence that COVID directly causes problems with sleep. What we know is that since COVID and lo

by zaroth 6y ago

The body of TFA rightly points out that we don’t actually have evidence that COVID directly causes problems with sleep. What we know is that since COVID and lockdowns, the number of people reporting sleep issues and seeking treatment for insomnia is increased. This is obviously entirely unsurprising. I think the more important point, somewhat ironically made on HN, is the critical effects of sleeplessness and promoting healthy sleep as a national public health priority. It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health.

simonbarker87 6y ago
My sleep was a mess over the summer and into mid autumn. I’ve only just reliably started sleeping through the night again. It’s always taken me a long time to get to sleep but from early May it was taking me a long time AND I was waking up two or three time’s a night which I’ve never had. Was horrible and I assumed a result of lock down and furlough.
jacquesm 6y ago
I can't believe that 11 months in and 1.7 million confirmed people dead, 350K of those your countrymen and I don't know how many people gravely ill and or affected for life that you are still on the 'let's downplay COVID-19' bandwagon. Didn't you learn anything at all in the last 11 months? I recall you categorically dismissing it and claiming that it was going to all be over in a couple of months. Here we are, almost a year later, the worst is yet to come - in spite of a vaccine, the roll-out is obviously not going to be instantaneous - and still you're harping away in every COVID-19 related thread minimizing whatever is written. It really is astounding.
- Izkata 6y ago
  > Didn't you learn anything at all in the last 11 months? What I've learned over the past 11 months, from watching the numbers wax and wane with the seasons totally unrelated to the severity of lockdowns, the ages of those most affected (and for that matter asymptomatic estimates and the corrected IFR estimates), and the knock-on effects of the lockdowns? While it was good to be cautious initially, turns out for this particular virus we've blown it way out of proportion and ought to be letting up a lot more than we have been.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    No, what you should realize is that without the lockdowns things would have been far worse than they are now.
slg 6y ago
>It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health. The pandemic is disrupting people's routines, not the lockdowns. The idea that society would be functioning as normal without lockdowns is silly.
- deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- twblalock 6y ago
  > The idea that society would be functioning as normal without lockdowns is silly. Given the large number of people disobeying restrictions, even in California, it seems that society would be quite a bit more "normal" if people were allowed to behave as they wished. See also how people flocked back to bars and restaurants when they reopened, how people have been crowding shops and malls, etc.
  - glogla 6y ago
    I'm not sure we've actually seen percentages, have we? Like, is 5 % of people disobeying restrictions? Or 50 %? I'm sure some people flocked, but for example in my friends circle, nobody did - of course, that's an anecdote which is why the numbers would be needed.
- deleted 6y ago
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- Smaug123 6y ago
  Porque no los dos? Lockdowns are disruptive (surely nobody could disagree with that); pandemics are disruptive (again, presumably nobody disagrees). The important question is to what extent the population is disrupted in the "lockdown" and "non-lockdown" scenarios, and what costs the society pays in human death, a collapsed economy, long-term health effects etc in the two cases. A reasonable discussion has to start by accepting that every course of action is shitty here! The task is to weigh up the amount of shit and the different qualities of the shit down each pathway; it'll help nobody to claim that one pathway is shining and clean.
mbesto 6y ago
> is the critical effects of sleeplessness and promoting healthy sleep as a national public health priority. > It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health And people literally dying from a virus isn't a public health priority?
- Smaug123 6y ago
  I don't think that was either stated or implied. Pandemics being bad for you doesn't automatically mean lockdowns are good for you, and vice versa!
  - anonunivgrad 6y ago
    By suggesting any negative effects of lockdowns, you have inadvertently challenged a tenet of the new national religion.
    - cubano 6y ago
      You mean like this article from the UN World Food Programme[0] that states due to overzealous lockdowns, that up to 80 children "elsewhere" are at very high risk of starvation for every over-70 US citizen it perhaps saves? Yes...mentioning things like this sure gets in the way of all the virtue-signalling that's going on these days. [0] https://www.wfp.org/news/wfp-chief-warns-grave-dangers-economic-impact-coronavirus-millions-are-pushed-further-hunger https://www.wfp.org/news/wfp-chief-warns-grave-dangers-econo...
      - anonunivgrad 6y ago
        As High Priest Cuomo said, if it saves even one life, it's worth it. Who are you to say that it's okay to risk the life of a 90 year old already in hospice?
- logifail 6y ago
  > people literally dying from a virus isn't a public health priority (This is going to seem combative, but it's not meant to be...) https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/12/COVID-19-total-announced-deaths-17-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sit... Look at the deaths by age and pre-existing-condition ("Tab 3 Deaths by condition") If you are under 60 and healthy, you are appear to be at almost no risk from C19.
Exmoor 6y ago
I believe the article rightly addresses that there are multiple causes for sleep issues and that many are likely the result of stress from the pandemic. But they've noticed accute issues specifically in patients known to have tested positive fir COVID. From TFA: > In recent months, however, Salas has watched a more curious pattern emerge. Many people’s sleep continues to be disrupted by predictable pandemic anxieties. But more perplexing symptoms have been arising specifically among people who have recovered from COVID-19. “We’re seeing referrals from doctors because the disease itself affects the nervous system,” she says. After recovering, people report changes in attention, debilitating headaches, brain fog, muscular weakness, and, perhaps most commonly, insomnia. There is a contingent of HN posters who are primed to blame a lot of bad effects on "the lockdown." Frankly, I was one of them 8 months ago when there was actually a lockdown, but at least in most places in the USA there really hasn't been anything I could reasonably describe as a "lockdown" since early Summer. Mask mandates, and limits on how specific businesses can operate, sure, but nothing like the draconian shelter-in-place orders we saw in the spring. I can say from firsthand experience that my families mental health is severely compromised at this point, but unfortunately none of it could be solved by less restrictive laws. It's all related to the pandemic and the choices we've had to make to reduce our chances of getting infected and passing that virus on to other people who have higher risks of dying.
- deleted 6y ago
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- logifail 6y ago
  > I can say from firsthand experience that my families mental health is severely compromised at this point, but unfortunately none of it could be solved by less restrictive laws. It's all related to the pandemic and the choices we've had to make to reduce our chances of getting infected and passing that virus on to other people who have higher risks of dying [..] My daughter (5) talks almost daily about the stuff she wants to do "when C19 is over". I'm not worried about getting infected, I'm not worried about her or her elder siblings getting infected (they're at higher risk of getting hit by lightning). I'm not even worried about us infecting older relatives. I am worried about elder relatives not seeing their grandchildren for over a year (and so are the elder relatives, just for that extra data point) She's talking about the stuff she's not allowed to do "because" of C19.
carlmr 6y ago
>how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health. For me the disruption was that I finally slept enough. You save so much time commuting, there's nothing to do at night, so you get a much more stable circadian rhythm, and more hours of sleep on average.
lend000 6y ago
Anecdotally, my WFH lifestyle didn't change much at all during lockdown, but I experienced long haul symptoms, which for a few months included not being able to sleep much and waking up very early. That part seems to have improved, fortunately. While there are plenty of confounding variables caused by changes to the population's lifestyle, that doesn't mean that covid can't also affect these things. It is possible for there to be overlap. Don't think like one of those doctors in the 60's that told patients their Epstein-Barr was all in their head or gave them anti-depressants.

by zaroth 6y ago

simonbarker87 6y ago

My sleep was a mess over the summer and into mid autumn. I’ve only just reliably started sleeping through the night again. It’s always taken me a long time to get to sleep but from early May it was taking me a long time AND I was waking up two or three time’s a night which I’ve never had. Was horrible and I assumed a result of lock down and furlough.

jacquesm 6y ago

I can't believe that 11 months in and 1.7 million confirmed people dead, 350K of those your countrymen and I don't know how many people gravely ill and or affected for life that you are still on the 'let's downplay COVID-19' bandwagon. Didn't you learn anything at all in the last 11 months? I recall you categorically dismissing it and claiming that it was going to all be over in a couple of months. Here we are, almost a year later, the worst is yet to come - in spite of a vaccine, the roll-out is obviously not going to be instantaneous - and still you're harping away in every COVID-19 related thread minimizing whatever is written. It really is astounding.

Izkata 6y ago
> Didn't you learn anything at all in the last 11 months? What I've learned over the past 11 months, from watching the numbers wax and wane with the seasons totally unrelated to the severity of lockdowns, the ages of those most affected (and for that matter asymptomatic estimates and the corrected IFR estimates), and the knock-on effects of the lockdowns? While it was good to be cautious initially, turns out for this particular virus we've blown it way out of proportion and ought to be letting up a lot more than we have been.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  No, what you should realize is that without the lockdowns things would have been far worse than they are now.

slg 6y ago

>It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health. The pandemic is disrupting people's routines, not the lockdowns. The idea that society would be functioning as normal without lockdowns is silly.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
twblalock 6y ago
> The idea that society would be functioning as normal without lockdowns is silly. Given the large number of people disobeying restrictions, even in California, it seems that society would be quite a bit more "normal" if people were allowed to behave as they wished. See also how people flocked back to bars and restaurants when they reopened, how people have been crowding shops and malls, etc.
- glogla 6y ago
  I'm not sure we've actually seen percentages, have we? Like, is 5 % of people disobeying restrictions? Or 50 %? I'm sure some people flocked, but for example in my friends circle, nobody did - of course, that's an anecdote which is why the numbers would be needed.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Smaug123 6y ago
Porque no los dos? Lockdowns are disruptive (surely nobody could disagree with that); pandemics are disruptive (again, presumably nobody disagrees). The important question is to what extent the population is disrupted in the "lockdown" and "non-lockdown" scenarios, and what costs the society pays in human death, a collapsed economy, long-term health effects etc in the two cases. A reasonable discussion has to start by accepting that every course of action is shitty here! The task is to weigh up the amount of shit and the different qualities of the shit down each pathway; it'll help nobody to claim that one pathway is shining and clean.

mbesto 6y ago

> is the critical effects of sleeplessness and promoting healthy sleep as a national public health priority. > It seems to me this is just another pernicious example of how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health And people literally dying from a virus isn't a public health priority?

Smaug123 6y ago
I don't think that was either stated or implied. Pandemics being bad for you doesn't automatically mean lockdowns are good for you, and vice versa!
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  By suggesting any negative effects of lockdowns, you have inadvertently challenged a tenet of the new national religion.
  - cubano 6y ago
    You mean like this article from the UN World Food Programme[0] that states due to overzealous lockdowns, that up to 80 children "elsewhere" are at very high risk of starvation for every over-70 US citizen it perhaps saves? Yes...mentioning things like this sure gets in the way of all the virtue-signalling that's going on these days. [0] https://www.wfp.org/news/wfp-chief-warns-grave-dangers-economic-impact-coronavirus-millions-are-pushed-further-hunger https://www.wfp.org/news/wfp-chief-warns-grave-dangers-econo...
    - anonunivgrad 6y ago
      As High Priest Cuomo said, if it saves even one life, it's worth it. Who are you to say that it's okay to risk the life of a 90 year old already in hospice?
logifail 6y ago
> people literally dying from a virus isn't a public health priority (This is going to seem combative, but it's not meant to be...) https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/12/COVID-19-total-announced-deaths-17-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sit... Look at the deaths by age and pre-existing-condition ("Tab 3 Deaths by condition") If you are under 60 and healthy, you are appear to be at almost no risk from C19.

Exmoor 6y ago

I believe the article rightly addresses that there are multiple causes for sleep issues and that many are likely the result of stress from the pandemic. But they've noticed accute issues specifically in patients known to have tested positive fir COVID. From TFA: > In recent months, however, Salas has watched a more curious pattern emerge. Many people’s sleep continues to be disrupted by predictable pandemic anxieties. But more perplexing symptoms have been arising specifically among people who have recovered from COVID-19. “We’re seeing referrals from doctors because the disease itself affects the nervous system,” she says. After recovering, people report changes in attention, debilitating headaches, brain fog, muscular weakness, and, perhaps most commonly, insomnia. There is a contingent of HN posters who are primed to blame a lot of bad effects on "the lockdown." Frankly, I was one of them 8 months ago when there was actually a lockdown, but at least in most places in the USA there really hasn't been anything I could reasonably describe as a "lockdown" since early Summer. Mask mandates, and limits on how specific businesses can operate, sure, but nothing like the draconian shelter-in-place orders we saw in the spring. I can say from firsthand experience that my families mental health is severely compromised at this point, but unfortunately none of it could be solved by less restrictive laws. It's all related to the pandemic and the choices we've had to make to reduce our chances of getting infected and passing that virus on to other people who have higher risks of dying.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
logifail 6y ago
> I can say from firsthand experience that my families mental health is severely compromised at this point, but unfortunately none of it could be solved by less restrictive laws. It's all related to the pandemic and the choices we've had to make to reduce our chances of getting infected and passing that virus on to other people who have higher risks of dying [..] My daughter (5) talks almost daily about the stuff she wants to do "when C19 is over". I'm not worried about getting infected, I'm not worried about her or her elder siblings getting infected (they're at higher risk of getting hit by lightning). I'm not even worried about us infecting older relatives. I am worried about elder relatives not seeing their grandchildren for over a year (and so are the elder relatives, just for that extra data point) She's talking about the stuff she's not allowed to do "because" of C19.

carlmr 6y ago

>how lockdowns and disrupting a population’s routines directly and indirectly damages public health. For me the disruption was that I finally slept enough. You save so much time commuting, there's nothing to do at night, so you get a much more stable circadian rhythm, and more hours of sleep on average.

lend000 6y ago

Anecdotally, my WFH lifestyle didn't change much at all during lockdown, but I experienced long haul symptoms, which for a few months included not being able to sleep much and waking up very early. That part seems to have improved, fortunately. While there are plenty of confounding variables caused by changes to the population's lifestyle, that doesn't mean that covid can't also affect these things. It is possible for there to be overlap. Don't think like one of those doctors in the 60's that told patients their Epstein-Barr was all in their head or gave them anti-depressants.