6 ms·

I don't really follow the argument presented here. Seems to be a proposal to have ultra austerity. >Economists of the Austrian school understand, that the boom

I don't really follow the argument presented here. Seems to be a proposal to have ultra austerity. >Economists of the Austrian school understand, that the boom is the real problem and the economic crisis is the necessary and positive cleansing mechanism.

MisterBastahrd 6y ago
"Why Famine Is Actually A Character Building Exercise" -- somewhere on Mises, probably
- Krustopolis 6y ago
  For the non-economists, he is referring to Ludwig von Mises: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises
- jeofken 6y ago
  Highly doubt von Mises said that. Here is good intro materials to his very rational economic theories https://mises.org/economics-beginners https://mises.org/economics-beginners
- zabuni 6y ago
  Why the Quarantine is actual serfdom. https://www.forgac.me/blog/2020/4/5/pandemic-the-shortcut-to-serfdom https://www.forgac.me/blog/2020/4/5/pandemic-the-shortcut-to... Also on Mises.
  - paganel 6y ago
    Keeping hundreds of millions of people locked inside their houses or in a 5- or 10-km radius is pretty close to modern serfdom, I mean, it definitely quacks and looks like serfdom to me. How else would you define modern serfdom? Apparently we must apply these serfdom-like measures in order to win against the current pandemic, but that's a different discussion (one of effectiveness).
    - Lockdumbcels 6y ago
      The lockdowncels are utterly obsessed about how much the lockdowns help and any word against them is a heresy.
    - logicchains 6y ago
      >Apparently we must apply these serfdom-like measures in order to win against the current pandemic, but that's a different discussion (one of effectiveness). It's not just a discussion of effectiveness, it's a discussion of values. But proponents of the lockdowns try to avoid that by painting anyone who doesn't share their value system as evil or immoral. There's a good chunk of the population who think it would be immoral to violate people's rights to free movement and association even if a disease with a 5-10% death rate was going around, because human rights aren't conditional. E.g. people who follow some form of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics rather than a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism -based value system.
- logicchains 6y ago
  Yes, because the greatest famines of the past 200 years, during the Great Leap Forward and holodomor, were caused by following extremist free market policies, not the opposite.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    So cocksure, yet so ignorant. A bad look. A quick google would've given you a few of those.
    - seibelj 6y ago
      So ignorant that every implementation of socialism / communism, or any economic system that tried to control prices in some systemic way, starved or outright murdered vast amounts of humanity? I love free societies and you should appreciate that capitalists allow the socialists to discuss revolution freely. Because if and when the socialists take over, I can guarantee they won’t afford the capitalists the same freedom.
      - jahaja 6y ago
        > Because if and when the socialists take over, I can guarantee they won’t afford the capitalists the same freedom. You should know your enemy better than lazily repeating Cold War rhetoric. 99% of all socialists today are firmly democratic.
        seibelj 6y ago
        ... as we watch the most overtly socialist countries on earth (Cuba, China, Venezuela, North Korea) do exactly the same playbook of thought crime, murder, and torture?
        jahaja 6y ago
        Are you just gonna parrot shallow Cold War rhetoric or what? The authoritarian socialists countries inevitable end result is the reason why socialists today are firmly democratic. If you are curious about socialist history, which I doubt, you will find plenty of democratic socialist writers flaming the authoritarians before, during, and after the USSR. Bertrand Russell's "The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism" is a good one.
protoman3000 6y ago
If wealthy people want to live in a minimalist world they should become monks instead of trying to push others to live like they themselves can’t. The demand for austerity is a fetish of power abuse and discharge of guilt by claiming only the best motives. Disgusting.
- haolez 6y ago
  I think it's not about austerity. It's probably about money printing and the quality of a currency.
  - ianai 6y ago
    That’s their bad faith argument. They probably see anything causing the tide to rise all boats as erosion of their socioeconomic position. Austerity is part of the recipe for turning a country into a failed state-see Greece.
    - logicchains 6y ago
      >They probably see anything causing the tide to rise all boats as erosion of their socioeconomic position. How on Earth does inflation rise all boats when it's literally a wealth transfer from all currency holders to the money issuers and first spenders (banks and financial institutions)?
      - protoman3000 6y ago
        Can you please explain how in your economic model value creation gets financed?
    - ilaksh 6y ago
      Personally I think both sides are totally right and also totally wrong. Because we absolutely do need to print money to avoid millions of people living in the streets at this point. But we also ARE going to be bankrupt by it. And I think the way out is to recognize that the monetary system is dated and inadequate and create a new one. Unlikely they will do that, but I feel better mentioning it even though it will be ignored. The new system would be digital and incorporate more real-world information and finer-grained control.
tenuousemphasis 6y ago
it's not that they don't think there should be economic booms, just that when they are artificially amplified by newly printed money, they tend to disproportionally benefit those who receive the new money first. And inevitably, those artificial booms are followed by artificially large contractions, which harm those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder the most.

MisterBastahrd 6y ago

"Why Famine Is Actually A Character Building Exercise" -- somewhere on Mises, probably

Krustopolis 6y ago
For the non-economists, he is referring to Ludwig von Mises: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises
jeofken 6y ago
Highly doubt von Mises said that. Here is good intro materials to his very rational economic theories https://mises.org/economics-beginners https://mises.org/economics-beginners
zabuni 6y ago
Why the Quarantine is actual serfdom. https://www.forgac.me/blog/2020/4/5/pandemic-the-shortcut-to-serfdom https://www.forgac.me/blog/2020/4/5/pandemic-the-shortcut-to... Also on Mises.
- paganel 6y ago
  Keeping hundreds of millions of people locked inside their houses or in a 5- or 10-km radius is pretty close to modern serfdom, I mean, it definitely quacks and looks like serfdom to me. How else would you define modern serfdom? Apparently we must apply these serfdom-like measures in order to win against the current pandemic, but that's a different discussion (one of effectiveness).
  - Lockdumbcels 6y ago
    The lockdowncels are utterly obsessed about how much the lockdowns help and any word against them is a heresy.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    >Apparently we must apply these serfdom-like measures in order to win against the current pandemic, but that's a different discussion (one of effectiveness). It's not just a discussion of effectiveness, it's a discussion of values. But proponents of the lockdowns try to avoid that by painting anyone who doesn't share their value system as evil or immoral. There's a good chunk of the population who think it would be immoral to violate people's rights to free movement and association even if a disease with a 5-10% death rate was going around, because human rights aren't conditional. E.g. people who follow some form of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics rather than a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism -based value system.
logicchains 6y ago
Yes, because the greatest famines of the past 200 years, during the Great Leap Forward and holodomor, were caused by following extremist free market policies, not the opposite.
- jahaja 6y ago
  So cocksure, yet so ignorant. A bad look. A quick google would've given you a few of those.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    So ignorant that every implementation of socialism / communism, or any economic system that tried to control prices in some systemic way, starved or outright murdered vast amounts of humanity? I love free societies and you should appreciate that capitalists allow the socialists to discuss revolution freely. Because if and when the socialists take over, I can guarantee they won’t afford the capitalists the same freedom.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      > Because if and when the socialists take over, I can guarantee they won’t afford the capitalists the same freedom. You should know your enemy better than lazily repeating Cold War rhetoric. 99% of all socialists today are firmly democratic.
      - seibelj 6y ago
        ... as we watch the most overtly socialist countries on earth (Cuba, China, Venezuela, North Korea) do exactly the same playbook of thought crime, murder, and torture?
        jahaja 6y ago
        Are you just gonna parrot shallow Cold War rhetoric or what? The authoritarian socialists countries inevitable end result is the reason why socialists today are firmly democratic. If you are curious about socialist history, which I doubt, you will find plenty of democratic socialist writers flaming the authoritarians before, during, and after the USSR. Bertrand Russell's "The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism" is a good one.

protoman3000 6y ago

If wealthy people want to live in a minimalist world they should become monks instead of trying to push others to live like they themselves can’t. The demand for austerity is a fetish of power abuse and discharge of guilt by claiming only the best motives. Disgusting.

haolez 6y ago
I think it's not about austerity. It's probably about money printing and the quality of a currency.
- ianai 6y ago
  That’s their bad faith argument. They probably see anything causing the tide to rise all boats as erosion of their socioeconomic position. Austerity is part of the recipe for turning a country into a failed state-see Greece.
  - logicchains 6y ago
    >They probably see anything causing the tide to rise all boats as erosion of their socioeconomic position. How on Earth does inflation rise all boats when it's literally a wealth transfer from all currency holders to the money issuers and first spenders (banks and financial institutions)?
    - protoman3000 6y ago
      Can you please explain how in your economic model value creation gets financed?
  - ilaksh 6y ago
    Personally I think both sides are totally right and also totally wrong. Because we absolutely do need to print money to avoid millions of people living in the streets at this point. But we also ARE going to be bankrupt by it. And I think the way out is to recognize that the monetary system is dated and inadequate and create a new one. Unlikely they will do that, but I feel better mentioning it even though it will be ignored. The new system would be digital and incorporate more real-world information and finer-grained control.

tenuousemphasis 6y ago

it's not that they don't think there should be economic booms, just that when they are artificially amplified by newly printed money, they tend to disproportionally benefit those who receive the new money first. And inevitably, those artificial booms are followed by artificially large contractions, which harm those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder the most.