6 ms·

It's the lowest of the white collar jobs.

api 6y ago
Postdoc, paralegal, architectural “cad monkies,” a lot of mid level administration... Depends on where you work too. Sounds like you may need a new job.
phnofive 6y ago
I think it may be on the lower end for a number of reasons which lead back to the low barrier to entry - there’s no need to pay your dues with a decade of schooling, in hundreds of thousands in tuition, and to professional associations, state boards of licensure, or both. However, there are crappy doctors and architects - just like there are famous software engineers. Prestige - outside the ingroup - is a function of the accessibility, value, and quality of your work. Like the Taiwanese folks who built a mask availability tracker...
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  It’s fundamentally disrespected by people at a core level. I’ll prove my point with the one question they always ask us versus any other profession, ‘what is it that you actually do at the company?’. I swear, I’d never think to ask this of anyone, doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, cops, literally, I can’t think of one profession that gets asked this, I’ll try again, pilots, chemists, diplomats, translators, artists, mechanics, it’s endless. What is it that you actually do? How about fuck you, I’m not answering that anymore. It tickles people the wrong way that you took software development into every possible industry you can imagine and not only started offering tech solutions, but business solutions too. Incoming projection - I see it as the most passive aggressive low ball attack on one’s profession. It’s karma too, because we do the same to sales/product/people management elements within our industry. I know why I’ve done it, and it’s mostly insecurity, ‘oh those people aren’t smart, will soon be gone’. ^ Now imagine the whole of society looking at you like that.
  - TheCoelacanth 6y ago
    I don't think I've ever been asked that by anyone other than my grandparents. Anyone under retirement age and reasonably well-educated knows what software development is or at least doesn't ask because they think it would make them look stupid not to know.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - gen220 6y ago
    Have you considered applying Hanlon's Razor to the question? In my experience, most people (i.e. sans pathologies) ask this question because they are ignorant and curious. They are trying to integrate the unknown (you and your craft) into the known, not trying to challenge your ego. --- A story that might be illustrative. A close relative of mine came to his current country from another country, but is a citizen of his new country. At social gatherings over the years, a not-uncommon question, asked by immigrants and born-citizens alike, was "Where are you from?" There was no quicker way to become his mortal enemy, and to ruin a party! He thought people were trying to parade his otherness, with the intent of making him feel out of place, not welcome, lesser-than, etc. From another perspective, each question was an opportunity to educate people on his heritage, and an objectively-fascinating component of his identity (that of "The Immigrant").
    - runawaybottle 6y ago
      I guess I lived too long to give people that kind of benefit of doubt (wasn’t born yesterday, I suppose). I know the system that built many of us.
      - gen220 6y ago
        This is something I think we can all relate to. I think it’s what afflicted my relative, too, for what it’s worth. When you’re stung by people, it’s hard to see the value in continuing to remain open. Regarding the accrual of knowledge and its hardening effects on the soul: > with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. > The wise have eyes in their heads, while the fool walks in the darkness; but the same fate overtakes them both. These quotes come from Ecclesiastes, which does not contain a much of a resolution. > A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. Tao Te Ching makes a similar recommendation: empty hearts and fill bellies. In short, worry less of ideas, and more of literal substances that bind us together (food, drink, and toil).
bonoboTP 6y ago
What's your line for "white collar"? There are lots of office desk jobs involving computers that are lower paid and lower status. Testers, help desk, data entry, administrative helpers etc. It is true though that its easier to climb the ladder via social/soft/people skills and selling/positioning yourself well and knowing who to associate with etc. compared to working real hard on technical stuff. If you want to impress general people, tell them about people related achievements, like how you led a big group to success, or how you resolved conflicts, big names you've worked with and know etc. Social capital is indeed more valuable in general and so managers and "soft" professionals like lawyers can seem higher status. But its more about the focus on people vs things. Rule of thumb: if you can be objectively wrong or make an objective mistake, you're on the lower end of status. If situations are more wishy washy and rhetoric can save you, you are higher up. Even though formulating it bluntly is frowned upon: as a software engineer you dominate (rule over) computers and equipment (similar to blue collar work), but to get respect from non techies you need to dominate people. No way around it. That's why managers like to have many reports, even if they are useless and hurt the bottom line.

api 6y ago

Postdoc, paralegal, architectural “cad monkies,” a lot of mid level administration... Depends on where you work too. Sounds like you may need a new job.

phnofive 6y ago

I think it may be on the lower end for a number of reasons which lead back to the low barrier to entry - there’s no need to pay your dues with a decade of schooling, in hundreds of thousands in tuition, and to professional associations, state boards of licensure, or both. However, there are crappy doctors and architects - just like there are famous software engineers. Prestige - outside the ingroup - is a function of the accessibility, value, and quality of your work. Like the Taiwanese folks who built a mask availability tracker...

runawaybottle 6y ago
It’s fundamentally disrespected by people at a core level. I’ll prove my point with the one question they always ask us versus any other profession, ‘what is it that you actually do at the company?’. I swear, I’d never think to ask this of anyone, doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, cops, literally, I can’t think of one profession that gets asked this, I’ll try again, pilots, chemists, diplomats, translators, artists, mechanics, it’s endless. What is it that you actually do? How about fuck you, I’m not answering that anymore. It tickles people the wrong way that you took software development into every possible industry you can imagine and not only started offering tech solutions, but business solutions too. Incoming projection - I see it as the most passive aggressive low ball attack on one’s profession. It’s karma too, because we do the same to sales/product/people management elements within our industry. I know why I’ve done it, and it’s mostly insecurity, ‘oh those people aren’t smart, will soon be gone’. ^ Now imagine the whole of society looking at you like that.
- TheCoelacanth 6y ago
  I don't think I've ever been asked that by anyone other than my grandparents. Anyone under retirement age and reasonably well-educated knows what software development is or at least doesn't ask because they think it would make them look stupid not to know.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- gen220 6y ago
  Have you considered applying Hanlon's Razor to the question? In my experience, most people (i.e. sans pathologies) ask this question because they are ignorant and curious. They are trying to integrate the unknown (you and your craft) into the known, not trying to challenge your ego. --- A story that might be illustrative. A close relative of mine came to his current country from another country, but is a citizen of his new country. At social gatherings over the years, a not-uncommon question, asked by immigrants and born-citizens alike, was "Where are you from?" There was no quicker way to become his mortal enemy, and to ruin a party! He thought people were trying to parade his otherness, with the intent of making him feel out of place, not welcome, lesser-than, etc. From another perspective, each question was an opportunity to educate people on his heritage, and an objectively-fascinating component of his identity (that of "The Immigrant").
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    I guess I lived too long to give people that kind of benefit of doubt (wasn’t born yesterday, I suppose). I know the system that built many of us.
    - gen220 6y ago
      This is something I think we can all relate to. I think it’s what afflicted my relative, too, for what it’s worth. When you’re stung by people, it’s hard to see the value in continuing to remain open. Regarding the accrual of knowledge and its hardening effects on the soul: > with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. > The wise have eyes in their heads, while the fool walks in the darkness; but the same fate overtakes them both. These quotes come from Ecclesiastes, which does not contain a much of a resolution. > A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. Tao Te Ching makes a similar recommendation: empty hearts and fill bellies. In short, worry less of ideas, and more of literal substances that bind us together (food, drink, and toil).

bonoboTP 6y ago

What's your line for "white collar"? There are lots of office desk jobs involving computers that are lower paid and lower status. Testers, help desk, data entry, administrative helpers etc. It is true though that its easier to climb the ladder via social/soft/people skills and selling/positioning yourself well and knowing who to associate with etc. compared to working real hard on technical stuff. If you want to impress general people, tell them about people related achievements, like how you led a big group to success, or how you resolved conflicts, big names you've worked with and know etc. Social capital is indeed more valuable in general and so managers and "soft" professionals like lawyers can seem higher status. But its more about the focus on people vs things. Rule of thumb: if you can be objectively wrong or make an objective mistake, you're on the lower end of status. If situations are more wishy washy and rhetoric can save you, you are higher up. Even though formulating it bluntly is frowned upon: as a software engineer you dominate (rule over) computers and equipment (similar to blue collar work), but to get respect from non techies you need to dominate people. No way around it. That's why managers like to have many reports, even if they are useless and hurt the bottom line.