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Am not an Apple user, was tasked with setting up a new Apple ID for a parent's iPad today. Took an hour, one of the most unpleasant computing experiences I've

by grlass 6y ago

Am not an Apple user, was tasked with setting up a new Apple ID for a parent's iPad today. Took an hour, one of the most unpleasant computing experiences I've had in recent memory, and I deal with embedded Linux systems. 14 OTPs sent to their mobile number, frequently being dumped back to the login screen. Maybe this was the reason, but damn this has discouraged me from ever going into their walled garden.

coldtea 6y ago
>Took an hour, one of the most unpleasant computing experiences I've had in recent memory, and I deal with embedded Linux systems. I'm pretty sure you've had tons of opportunities to spend far more than "1 hour" diagnosing, fixing, and handling some hair pulling desktop/server/embedded Linux issues - even when there was no outtage involved. Did these equally discouraged you from ever going into desktop/server/embedded Linux?
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  Handling servers and embedded Linux is much different than setting up an iPad, which is a consumer device...
  - grlass 6y ago
    Indeed, purpose was illustrative hyperbole - I am used to frustration. Consumer devices come with less expectation of frustration, a justified expectation setting up Android devices, games consoles, Chromecast-type things, etc.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Yes, but that's neither here, nor there. First, because we could also have server-class devices that are quite easy to setup (similarly to how consumer PCs where much harder to setup in the past and are much easier now). We just come to not expect it, but that doesn't make consumer vs server something that inherently justifies "more difficult to setup". Second, because the "spend 1 hour to add an account on an iPad (and during an outtage at that)" is far from the common behavior of the iPad, to be representative of some inherent issue with it. So, it's more like "I had a quite unlikely and unrepresentative experience with an iPad and it put me off from such devices, whereas I tolerate the same far more often from servers and desktop machines and don't think twice about it". Which, put that way, is much less potent than "that damned iPad and Apple's walled garden wasted 1 hour of my life, I'm never going back to those", isn't it?
    - grlass 6y ago
      If we're talking server class, then the average experience for me is a lot easier than what setting up that particular device was. From the perspective of an individual, whether or not your experience is representative of most people's experience of a similar thing only has moderate relevance. Most people find serial killers to be normal, or even charming. This is of little comfort to victims.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      > So, it's more like "I had a quite unlikely and unrepresentative experience with an iPad and it put me off from such devices, whereas I tolerate the same far more often from servers and desktop machines and don't think twice about it". Sounds just like "I am a Mac user installing Linux on a cheap best buy laptop and whoa it doesn't work as well supporting a pretty obscure config that macOS would never even boot on, but am going to compare to my top of the line MBP and complain".
      - coldtea 6y ago
        How about "I'm an long-time UNIX user, having used and worked professionally on SunOS, HP-UX, AIX, Solaris before "package managers" were a thing, have used Desktop Linux in many varieties since around 1997 (Red Hat, Corel, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, and others (including brief stints with FreeBSD), am all this time using Linux professionally for server work (solely Debian, Ubuntu, and Centos), and have used Windows since before 3.1 was a thing, and I still enjoy my Mac more"?
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        You missed the point. The point was how Apple users are also keen to dismiss an entire OS based on a singular, unlikely, bad experience in the same way OP was willing to write off the iPad based on his experience setting it up.
- ornxka 6y ago
  Not him, but the difference to me is that all of those systems are meant to be amenable to debugging - you can't run strace on an iPad.
dx87 6y ago
It wasn't because of the outage, I had the same experience setting up an AppleTV a couple of months ago. It seems like the whole "it just works" motto only applies if you use nothing but Apple products. It actually made my wife decide to not buy another macbook because of how transparently user-hostile the setup was.
- some1else 6y ago
  Occiasionally it feels as if hurdles are placed specifically to make Google and Apple integration a pain. They're waging war and consumers are paying the price. We should hold them accountable, but the decreasing expectation of interoperability will make that harder and harder to do. The antitrust proceedings could help improve this situation, but consumer-protection organizations will have to fight to prevent the outcome leading to an even more hermetic oligarchy.
- matwood 6y ago
  Not doubting your experience, because from what I've read when Apple fails it often really fails. I also think people rightly expect a perfect experience from Apple. It's the bar they themselves have set. With that said, what part of the failure mode was user-hostile? I have an ATV, various Chromecasts, and Amazon streaming devices, and the ATV is by far the best, most reliable experience. My only complaint is the price, and if they were cheaper they would be on every TV in my house.
  - Terretta 6y ago
    ATV is not even a “walled garden”, app runs on lots of things, even Xbox, for instance. Funny enough, I can’t get my dad to run the Apple TV app on his Xbox. He switches inputs, he can’t wrap his head around Apple TV being on or in the Xbox!
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      You are talking about the app, they are talking about the hockypuck sized Apple TV device. These are not the same thing.
MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
Wait until you lose the secondary 2FA device. Then apple just locks you out because Apple owners apparently don't get robbed or lose their phones.
- mr_toad 6y ago
  Losing a factor is a potential problem in any 2FA scheme.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
    Apple though directly contacts another one of your devices, regardless if you still own it. If you don't own it...well, good luck contacting support getting it unlocked. It's gonna be a fun week or two proving you're who you are to apple. Also no, with Authy, as long as I have my master password somewhere, I can still login and get my 2FA codes.
    - matwood 6y ago
      > Apple though directly contacts another one of your devices, regardless if you still own it. Just so I'm clear, you're saying Apple sends a 2FA request to devices that are no longer tied to your AppleID? That seems like a huge security hole, and one I'm sure they would like to have reported. > Also no, with Authy, as long as I have my master password somewhere, I can still login and get my 2FA codes. Keep in mind that while Authy is great, it does weaken 2FA a bit. Now a hacker can hack Authy and then gain access. In a maximum secure 2FA setup (with a hardware token or Google Authenticator that is tied to the device), if you lose the second factor it's supposed to be hard to get access. Some companies even tell you up front, that if you don't have the codes shown when setting up 2FA, and you lose the 2FA you lose your account.
Terretta 6y ago
Since that’s not how any of that should work, perhaps either it was ID trouble related (ID troubles hit Azure/O365, AWS, and Google in Dec, Apple’s got company here), or there’s something odd in the setup you’re shooting for? In the small, iOS devices are one of the few things I can set up fresh for technophobes out of the box and over the phone. In the large, while bringing Apple ecosystem BYOD into a 15K employee bank, we got to see a good amount of setup challenges with various lines of phones, laptops, and desktops (main competing products were Surface, Microsoft’s first party line), and these are the ones that cost us the least to support. The flip side of your experience are my wife and my phones which seamlessly and with zero telco/carrier interaction, upgraded both phones to new hardware (11 to 12) while bringing over both dual SIM card and eSIM plans. First time I’d seen the “We found an applicable cellular plan that could work on this phone, want to bring it over?” (paraphrased) dialog box. There’s just no way clicking OK on that is going to make Verizon, T-Mobile, or AT&T do the right thing — but it does, in seconds. Both also used the new device-to-device content transfer rather than iCloud restore from backup, with devices usable again in under 45 minutes from start, complete with watches and headphones etc repaired to the new devices. Maybe I’m jaded, but damn this encourages me to evangelize their well-curated garden.
smarx007 6y ago
Do you have a VPN on the router level? Or a PiHole banning Apple servers? Or have you used Linux to try to log into the new Apple ID? Or disabled location services not only for apps but also for system services? I think Apple uses all of those as a sign of "suspicious" activity. Whoa, a pro user, that's suspicious! Jokes aside, I do all of those and had some problems with Apple ID (not as bad as you described) that went away when I temporarily disconnected the VPN, DNS set to 9.9.9.9 and Apple services where whitelisted in Lulu firewall for macOS. But also possible it was connected to the outage and some caches kept being evicted. Side note: To me it seems a lot of people rushed to activate their new Apple devices on the Christmas day. I was expecting the pandemic to have people to cut down on purchases that were not strictly necessary. What did I miss?
toyg 6y ago
I had a similarly bad experience today. I just wanted to share my iTunes library with my daughter. I have an MBP and she has an iPhone, should be easy right? Nope - since we don't pay the monthly feudal tax for Music, I had to fish out an obscure "sign in" in Settings -> Music, literally the last option on screen. Why do I have to sign in with my Apple ID on her phone, despite her account being defined in my Family already, just to share a few files? The only logical answer is "because you really should pay the monthly submission fee to Lord Apple". And of course I expect this will stop working as soon as she steps out of the house. Honestly, it didn't use to be like this. Hey Tim, you should at least pretend you're caring about something more than your profit margins.
- unphased 6y ago
  Many things such as app purchases can be shared, but apple music family plan does cost more than the individual plan. The workaround is to add (as you did) both devices to the same icloud account. AFAIK (i am not an expert on this)
- jagged-chisel 6y ago
  iTunes used to support "iTunes Library Sharing" such taht you were more or less streaming your tunes from your library to the receiving device - anyone on the same wifi network could share libraries. Now Apple Music is terribly confused about owned music versus streamable music. I haven't tried the owned library sharing in years, but I have problems trying to get tracks I own into audio processing apps - they should just be available, but it seems I have to download the track in Music first, then wait some unspecified amount of time before the audio is allowed to see it. The whole things counters the convenience I thought Apple was selling.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
Also not an apple user but I wanted to try to build a react native app on a family member"s computer. I set up my own account with apples developer portal, trying to build and submit the app through my family member's computer was not as hard as trying to figure out how to sign out my family member's icloud account and log my icloud account in. Why is it so so so hard to switch user accounts on a macbook for 30 minutes and then switch it back?

by grlass 6y ago

coldtea 6y ago

>Took an hour, one of the most unpleasant computing experiences I've had in recent memory, and I deal with embedded Linux systems. I'm pretty sure you've had tons of opportunities to spend far more than "1 hour" diagnosing, fixing, and handling some hair pulling desktop/server/embedded Linux issues - even when there was no outtage involved. Did these equally discouraged you from ever going into desktop/server/embedded Linux?

NicoJuicy 6y ago
Handling servers and embedded Linux is much different than setting up an iPad, which is a consumer device...
- grlass 6y ago
  Indeed, purpose was illustrative hyperbole - I am used to frustration. Consumer devices come with less expectation of frustration, a justified expectation setting up Android devices, games consoles, Chromecast-type things, etc.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Yes, but that's neither here, nor there. First, because we could also have server-class devices that are quite easy to setup (similarly to how consumer PCs where much harder to setup in the past and are much easier now). We just come to not expect it, but that doesn't make consumer vs server something that inherently justifies "more difficult to setup". Second, because the "spend 1 hour to add an account on an iPad (and during an outtage at that)" is far from the common behavior of the iPad, to be representative of some inherent issue with it. So, it's more like "I had a quite unlikely and unrepresentative experience with an iPad and it put me off from such devices, whereas I tolerate the same far more often from servers and desktop machines and don't think twice about it". Which, put that way, is much less potent than "that damned iPad and Apple's walled garden wasted 1 hour of my life, I'm never going back to those", isn't it?
  - grlass 6y ago
    If we're talking server class, then the average experience for me is a lot easier than what setting up that particular device was. From the perspective of an individual, whether or not your experience is representative of most people's experience of a similar thing only has moderate relevance. Most people find serial killers to be normal, or even charming. This is of little comfort to victims.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    > So, it's more like "I had a quite unlikely and unrepresentative experience with an iPad and it put me off from such devices, whereas I tolerate the same far more often from servers and desktop machines and don't think twice about it". Sounds just like "I am a Mac user installing Linux on a cheap best buy laptop and whoa it doesn't work as well supporting a pretty obscure config that macOS would never even boot on, but am going to compare to my top of the line MBP and complain".
    - coldtea 6y ago
      How about "I'm an long-time UNIX user, having used and worked professionally on SunOS, HP-UX, AIX, Solaris before "package managers" were a thing, have used Desktop Linux in many varieties since around 1997 (Red Hat, Corel, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, and others (including brief stints with FreeBSD), am all this time using Linux professionally for server work (solely Debian, Ubuntu, and Centos), and have used Windows since before 3.1 was a thing, and I still enjoy my Mac more"?
      - AsyncAwait 6y ago
        You missed the point. The point was how Apple users are also keen to dismiss an entire OS based on a singular, unlikely, bad experience in the same way OP was willing to write off the iPad based on his experience setting it up.
ornxka 6y ago
Not him, but the difference to me is that all of those systems are meant to be amenable to debugging - you can't run strace on an iPad.

dx87 6y ago

It wasn't because of the outage, I had the same experience setting up an AppleTV a couple of months ago. It seems like the whole "it just works" motto only applies if you use nothing but Apple products. It actually made my wife decide to not buy another macbook because of how transparently user-hostile the setup was.

some1else 6y ago
Occiasionally it feels as if hurdles are placed specifically to make Google and Apple integration a pain. They're waging war and consumers are paying the price. We should hold them accountable, but the decreasing expectation of interoperability will make that harder and harder to do. The antitrust proceedings could help improve this situation, but consumer-protection organizations will have to fight to prevent the outcome leading to an even more hermetic oligarchy.
matwood 6y ago
Not doubting your experience, because from what I've read when Apple fails it often really fails. I also think people rightly expect a perfect experience from Apple. It's the bar they themselves have set. With that said, what part of the failure mode was user-hostile? I have an ATV, various Chromecasts, and Amazon streaming devices, and the ATV is by far the best, most reliable experience. My only complaint is the price, and if they were cheaper they would be on every TV in my house.
- Terretta 6y ago
  ATV is not even a “walled garden”, app runs on lots of things, even Xbox, for instance. Funny enough, I can’t get my dad to run the Apple TV app on his Xbox. He switches inputs, he can’t wrap his head around Apple TV being on or in the Xbox!
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    You are talking about the app, they are talking about the hockypuck sized Apple TV device. These are not the same thing.

MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago

Wait until you lose the secondary 2FA device. Then apple just locks you out because Apple owners apparently don't get robbed or lose their phones.

mr_toad 6y ago
Losing a factor is a potential problem in any 2FA scheme.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
  Apple though directly contacts another one of your devices, regardless if you still own it. If you don't own it...well, good luck contacting support getting it unlocked. It's gonna be a fun week or two proving you're who you are to apple. Also no, with Authy, as long as I have my master password somewhere, I can still login and get my 2FA codes.
  - matwood 6y ago
    > Apple though directly contacts another one of your devices, regardless if you still own it. Just so I'm clear, you're saying Apple sends a 2FA request to devices that are no longer tied to your AppleID? That seems like a huge security hole, and one I'm sure they would like to have reported. > Also no, with Authy, as long as I have my master password somewhere, I can still login and get my 2FA codes. Keep in mind that while Authy is great, it does weaken 2FA a bit. Now a hacker can hack Authy and then gain access. In a maximum secure 2FA setup (with a hardware token or Google Authenticator that is tied to the device), if you lose the second factor it's supposed to be hard to get access. Some companies even tell you up front, that if you don't have the codes shown when setting up 2FA, and you lose the 2FA you lose your account.

Terretta 6y ago

Since that’s not how any of that should work, perhaps either it was ID trouble related (ID troubles hit Azure/O365, AWS, and Google in Dec, Apple’s got company here), or there’s something odd in the setup you’re shooting for? In the small, iOS devices are one of the few things I can set up fresh for technophobes out of the box and over the phone. In the large, while bringing Apple ecosystem BYOD into a 15K employee bank, we got to see a good amount of setup challenges with various lines of phones, laptops, and desktops (main competing products were Surface, Microsoft’s first party line), and these are the ones that cost us the least to support. The flip side of your experience are my wife and my phones which seamlessly and with zero telco/carrier interaction, upgraded both phones to new hardware (11 to 12) while bringing over both dual SIM card and eSIM plans. First time I’d seen the “We found an applicable cellular plan that could work on this phone, want to bring it over?” (paraphrased) dialog box. There’s just no way clicking OK on that is going to make Verizon, T-Mobile, or AT&T do the right thing — but it does, in seconds. Both also used the new device-to-device content transfer rather than iCloud restore from backup, with devices usable again in under 45 minutes from start, complete with watches and headphones etc repaired to the new devices. Maybe I’m jaded, but damn this encourages me to evangelize their well-curated garden.

smarx007 6y ago

Do you have a VPN on the router level? Or a PiHole banning Apple servers? Or have you used Linux to try to log into the new Apple ID? Or disabled location services not only for apps but also for system services? I think Apple uses all of those as a sign of "suspicious" activity. Whoa, a pro user, that's suspicious! Jokes aside, I do all of those and had some problems with Apple ID (not as bad as you described) that went away when I temporarily disconnected the VPN, DNS set to 9.9.9.9 and Apple services where whitelisted in Lulu firewall for macOS. But also possible it was connected to the outage and some caches kept being evicted. Side note: To me it seems a lot of people rushed to activate their new Apple devices on the Christmas day. I was expecting the pandemic to have people to cut down on purchases that were not strictly necessary. What did I miss?

toyg 6y ago

I had a similarly bad experience today. I just wanted to share my iTunes library with my daughter. I have an MBP and she has an iPhone, should be easy right? Nope - since we don't pay the monthly feudal tax for Music, I had to fish out an obscure "sign in" in Settings -> Music, literally the last option on screen. Why do I have to sign in with my Apple ID on her phone, despite her account being defined in my Family already, just to share a few files? The only logical answer is "because you really should pay the monthly submission fee to Lord Apple". And of course I expect this will stop working as soon as she steps out of the house. Honestly, it didn't use to be like this. Hey Tim, you should at least pretend you're caring about something more than your profit margins.

unphased 6y ago
Many things such as app purchases can be shared, but apple music family plan does cost more than the individual plan. The workaround is to add (as you did) both devices to the same icloud account. AFAIK (i am not an expert on this)
jagged-chisel 6y ago
iTunes used to support "iTunes Library Sharing" such taht you were more or less streaming your tunes from your library to the receiving device - anyone on the same wifi network could share libraries. Now Apple Music is terribly confused about owned music versus streamable music. I haven't tried the owned library sharing in years, but I have problems trying to get tracks I own into audio processing apps - they should just be available, but it seems I have to download the track in Music first, then wait some unspecified amount of time before the audio is allowed to see it. The whole things counters the convenience I thought Apple was selling.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

Also not an apple user but I wanted to try to build a react native app on a family member"s computer. I set up my own account with apples developer portal, trying to build and submit the app through my family member's computer was not as hard as trying to figure out how to sign out my family member's icloud account and log my icloud account in. Why is it so so so hard to switch user accounts on a macbook for 30 minutes and then switch it back?