4 ms·

There must be some very special political reason for keeping borders with UK open, so even Fauci seem to approve it. I wonder what is it?

jtxx 6y ago
I’ve been thinking about this as well, they also kept their borders open to US citizens despite most countries closing them. Perhaps Brexit closing trade doors with the EU could be resulting in a stronger relationship between the US & UK?
- vixen99 6y ago
  Britain has closed one trade door but opened a new one with the EU. Specifically they have reached a “zero tariff-zero quota deal”. Not ratified by the British Parliament but no one supposes this won't be done in the next few days before the final break with the EU on the 31st December.
- Izkata 6y ago
  Yeah, from a bit over a year ago: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-boris-johnson-brexit-trade-deal-john-bolton-first-in-line-2019-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-boris-johnson-brexit-t... Though AFAIK it's kinda up in the air if Biden would go for the same thing.
bredren 6y ago
Any new precedent for completely closing borders between developed nations for any reason is bad. Because it creates a “we did this before.” Even if the scale or details of circumstance are different—such as Clinton’s pardoning of his brother in minimizing Trump’s choices. Another reason is exceptions cause outrage. And there may be many instances of diplomatic or other government travel that needs to happen or happen in the slipstream of limited public travel.
- GregarianChild 6y ago
  Could you elaborate by which moral principle you come to the conclusion that a vague slippery slope and even more vague outrage is more important than stopping a pandemic with hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths? Most moral systems of my acquantance are based on a hierachy of values that puts saving human lives over just about anything.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    >"Most moral systems of my acquantance are based on a hierachy of values that puts saving human lives over just about anything. " False. While not explicitly stated there is a threshold usually measurable in money spent after which saving life is considered of being "not worth it". Ford Pinto case that went through the courts I think can serve as a very good particular example where cost analysis made it legal to allow otherwise preventable deaths.
  - Pyxl101 6y ago
    I don't necessarily subscribe to this point of view (I don't know what I believe; I need to think more), but allow me to play devil's advocate consider: most of the people who die from this disease are old people who have already lived their lives. The young are giving up the opportunity to live their lives by staying home to stop the spread, when they predominately aren't at risk of death. Should the young give up their lives to save the old? The young already sacrifice substantially for the old - in the United States by way of Medicare for example. The lives of many young people are completely on hold: they cannot go to school, cannot have weddings, cannot have fun, all to stop a disease that for most not-old healthy people is similar to the flu or even milder. If you're a young person you might not find this to be a worthwhile sacrifice - sacrificing years of your life to save people who have already lived "full" lives (that would be longer if not for COVID, but have made it to old age). The vast majority of deaths are people over age 55: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#AgeAndSex https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Ag...
    - nthj 6y ago
nostrademons 6y ago
Makes it harder for doctors to get supplies if all the borders are closed. The UK has an upcoming COVID vaccine (the Astra-Zeneca/Oxford one) that may prove useful in the near future. Cut off the UK from the rest of the world and the rest of the world can't benefit from it. Also, it's almost certain that the UK strain is in the US already, and the US is shit at dealing with pandemics once they're on our soil. Border closures only work if your test/trace/isolate institutions and compliance with social distancing is good enough to eradicate the virus from within your borders; they prevent reinfection in that case. The US has shown we're completely incapable of that, so it really doesn't matter.
- khuey 6y ago
  Nobody is talking about closing borders to cargo.
  - nostrademons 6y ago
    Actually they are: https://news.sky.com/story/emergency-talks-to-prevent-christmas-food-shortages-after-freight-hit-by-europes-border-closures-12169041 https://news.sky.com/story/emergency-talks-to-prevent-christ...
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Don't people and goods mostly travel separately?
  - nostrademons 6y ago
    They do, but many of the border closures apply to both.
grey-area 6y ago
This variant is already widespread. It is very unlikely that it is not already spreading in the US.
- SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
  It is very likely it is not spreading in US at all, otherwise it would have long been found. US also does fair amount of genomic surveillance, a new strain would not be unnoticed. Anyway, there must be proof that it is already spreading in US before, before keeping the borders open.
matwood 6y ago
What I’ve seen discussed is that closing borders only works if it’s done totally and immediately. Otherwise, it just slows response and causes super spreader events like we saw early this year in the US.
- bestnameever 6y ago
  How does closing a border cause super spreader events?
  - matwood 6y ago
    The haphazard closure in March caused multi-hour long, crowded backups at airports as people tried to get back. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/trumps-coronavirus-travel-ban-causes-chaos-at-the-airports.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/trumps-coronavirus-t...
- dehrmann 6y ago
  The UK also teed-up a super spreader event with its rushed lockdown last week. India did the same thing back in ~April, and it ended up encouraging traveling and dispersed people across the country.

jtxx 6y ago

I’ve been thinking about this as well, they also kept their borders open to US citizens despite most countries closing them. Perhaps Brexit closing trade doors with the EU could be resulting in a stronger relationship between the US & UK?

vixen99 6y ago
Britain has closed one trade door but opened a new one with the EU. Specifically they have reached a “zero tariff-zero quota deal”. Not ratified by the British Parliament but no one supposes this won't be done in the next few days before the final break with the EU on the 31st December.
Izkata 6y ago
Yeah, from a bit over a year ago: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-boris-johnson-brexit-trade-deal-john-bolton-first-in-line-2019-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-boris-johnson-brexit-t... Though AFAIK it's kinda up in the air if Biden would go for the same thing.

bredren 6y ago

Any new precedent for completely closing borders between developed nations for any reason is bad. Because it creates a “we did this before.” Even if the scale or details of circumstance are different—such as Clinton’s pardoning of his brother in minimizing Trump’s choices. Another reason is exceptions cause outrage. And there may be many instances of diplomatic or other government travel that needs to happen or happen in the slipstream of limited public travel.

GregarianChild 6y ago
Could you elaborate by which moral principle you come to the conclusion that a vague slippery slope and even more vague outrage is more important than stopping a pandemic with hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths? Most moral systems of my acquantance are based on a hierachy of values that puts saving human lives over just about anything.
- FpUser 6y ago
  >"Most moral systems of my acquantance are based on a hierachy of values that puts saving human lives over just about anything. " False. While not explicitly stated there is a threshold usually measurable in money spent after which saving life is considered of being "not worth it". Ford Pinto case that went through the courts I think can serve as a very good particular example where cost analysis made it legal to allow otherwise preventable deaths.
- Pyxl101 6y ago
  I don't necessarily subscribe to this point of view (I don't know what I believe; I need to think more), but allow me to play devil's advocate consider: most of the people who die from this disease are old people who have already lived their lives. The young are giving up the opportunity to live their lives by staying home to stop the spread, when they predominately aren't at risk of death. Should the young give up their lives to save the old? The young already sacrifice substantially for the old - in the United States by way of Medicare for example. The lives of many young people are completely on hold: they cannot go to school, cannot have weddings, cannot have fun, all to stop a disease that for most not-old healthy people is similar to the flu or even milder. If you're a young person you might not find this to be a worthwhile sacrifice - sacrificing years of your life to save people who have already lived "full" lives (that would be longer if not for COVID, but have made it to old age). The vast majority of deaths are people over age 55: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#AgeAndSex https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Ag...
  - nthj 6y ago

nostrademons 6y ago

Makes it harder for doctors to get supplies if all the borders are closed. The UK has an upcoming COVID vaccine (the Astra-Zeneca/Oxford one) that may prove useful in the near future. Cut off the UK from the rest of the world and the rest of the world can't benefit from it. Also, it's almost certain that the UK strain is in the US already, and the US is shit at dealing with pandemics once they're on our soil. Border closures only work if your test/trace/isolate institutions and compliance with social distancing is good enough to eradicate the virus from within your borders; they prevent reinfection in that case. The US has shown we're completely incapable of that, so it really doesn't matter.

khuey 6y ago
Nobody is talking about closing borders to cargo.
- nostrademons 6y ago
  Actually they are: https://news.sky.com/story/emergency-talks-to-prevent-christmas-food-shortages-after-freight-hit-by-europes-border-closures-12169041 https://news.sky.com/story/emergency-talks-to-prevent-christ...
maxerickson 6y ago
Don't people and goods mostly travel separately?
- nostrademons 6y ago
  They do, but many of the border closures apply to both.

grey-area 6y ago

This variant is already widespread. It is very unlikely that it is not already spreading in the US.

SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
It is very likely it is not spreading in US at all, otherwise it would have long been found. US also does fair amount of genomic surveillance, a new strain would not be unnoticed. Anyway, there must be proof that it is already spreading in US before, before keeping the borders open.

matwood 6y ago

What I’ve seen discussed is that closing borders only works if it’s done totally and immediately. Otherwise, it just slows response and causes super spreader events like we saw early this year in the US.

bestnameever 6y ago
How does closing a border cause super spreader events?
- matwood 6y ago
  The haphazard closure in March caused multi-hour long, crowded backups at airports as people tried to get back. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/trumps-coronavirus-travel-ban-causes-chaos-at-the-airports.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/trumps-coronavirus-t...
dehrmann 6y ago
The UK also teed-up a super spreader event with its rushed lockdown last week. India did the same thing back in ~April, and it ended up encouraging traveling and dispersed people across the country.