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It continues to astonish me the degree to which a literal concentration camp operating totalitarian state can get away with barely a mention after unleashing a

It continues to astonish me the degree to which a literal concentration camp operating totalitarian state can get away with barely a mention after unleashing a pandemic which has killed 1.5M people. Historians will look back on this with horror. However the virus broke out, China knew full well after SARS 1 that wet markets and e.g. traditional Chinese medicine were huge pandemic risks and did nothing. After SARS 2 broke out there was a very well evidenced cover up and misinformation campaign which apparently without which could have saved 95% of cases. But instead of the media keeping that in collective consciousness we get pieces like this. As they rightly say the next pandemic could be considerably worse. The absolute lack of any political or economic pressure on the country most likely to cause it directly informed by a media who appear to no longer care about that fact will be a big factor. If you think I am being unreasonable, just do the thought experiment and imagine the US or UK had done what china did. You would not hear the end of it and sanctions and actions against them would be instant and severe. But don't worry, at least zoom seems to work ok.

pjc50 6y ago
Sanctions on the US are inconceivable regardless of what the US does. The pardoning of war criminals goes by with a mere eyeroll.
- barnacled 6y ago
  I think it's precisely an attitude like this which is the problem. The US/UK and China are incomparable. For example, you can say what you just said without consequence. Try that in China. There is no rule of law there, prosecutors get a 99% conviction rate and political opponents are disappeared. The communist government system has killed over 100M and China actively organ harvests political prisoners. the US and UK may have done terrible wrongs but they are held endlessly to account. I don't want to get into a dreadful endless debate about foreign adventures (I am not a fan of the Afghan or Iraqi wars by the way) but there is just a world of difference between a totalitarian state and a democratic one. Imagine the police turning up and arresting you for that comment and you disappear never to be heard from again. That is the reality for many Chinese dissidents. Don't undervalue the freedoms gifted to you by the imperfect state in which you live.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    TBH, sanctions are inconceivable on China for the same reason - they are now simply too large and too much money is at stake. There's also the question of effectiveness. Iran has been under sanctions for most of my adult life, and still appears to be islamist. Ditto north korea. Going further to provoke a war is much worse. The uighur situation is far more concerning than the errors of the pandemic, which was like Chernobyl a mistake and misgovernment rather than intentional.
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    > Imagine the police turning up and arresting you for that comment https://twitter.com/_SecondThought/status/1332746172570677250 https://twitter.com/_SecondThought/status/133274617257067725...
    - mixedCase 6y ago
      While I found that sort of intimidation tactic reprehensible, an actual arrest is clearly a step beyond it, enslavement or murder as practiced by the CCP is on yet another level.
tfsh 6y ago
I'd be surprised if in your hypothetical scenario there would be sanctions against the US or the UK. Neither country would try and cover it up which is what's been truly despicable about China's response. I do wish the wider world started taking notice of the vile crimes the CCP are committing.
- barnacled 6y ago
  There'd certainly be rigorous demands on precisely how either country would demonstrate that the risk had been mitigated and widespread damning coverage and condemnation. The CCP (who have all but destroyed and coopted the great history of ancient China) are a despicably evil state who will cause a great many FURTHER deaths if the world doesn't start taking note and action. What is a journalist for if they don't even tell the truth when the elephant in the room is the size of a meteor? Not a single mention in this article and most I read recently.
deleted 6y ago
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lifeformed 6y ago
A lot of diseases originate in Asia for various biological, cultural, and geographic reasons, not always political ones. Swine flu originated in the US and infected over a billion around the world, and the world didn't have "instant and severe" sanctions against the US.
- barnacled 6y ago
  Swine flu didn't kill 1.5M. Swine flu wasn't covered up at source with doctors arrested and sanctioned. Swine flu didn't come after a very similar outbreak in 2003 where worldwide experts told america 'this particular kind of market is a huge pandemic risk, you should stop that' which america adhered to for a brief period then reopened and promoted. America didn't stop flights internally after the outbreak while permitting international ones. There wasn't indication of the WHO being overtly influenced by the US to cover up the seriousness of swine flu. America acted to address the issue and prevent future outbreaks. China is doing precisely the opposite, and looking to save face rather than save lives. Anybody with half a brain should be aghast at what's going on very blatantly right in front of their eyes. The next pandemic might not have a 0.4% case mortality rate mostly affecting those at the end of their lives/with comorbidities. Taking the point separately about disease prevalence in Asia - absolutely, and there are many reasons as to why - the wide biosphere, the broad consumption of many species not consumed abroad, the prevalence of high risk animals with similar biology to ours but higher tolerance for e.g. fever/respiratory disease (bats are unfortunately extremely good at this) - this is precisely why we have to be extremely vigilent there. This is also what makes the Chinese refusing to allow serious investigation into the outbreak (now only permitted via the highly questionable WHO) along with them opening wet markets shortly after the initial outbreak and worse of all the undenaible cover up particularly egregious. Perhaps the next pandemic would be unavoidable even with China doing all they could to prevent it - but for them to play dice with the future of civilisation with what control they have is unforgiveable.
  - sampo 6y ago
    > doctors arrested and sanctioned This is not exactly the same, but police searched the home of a Florida data scientist and confiscated her computers, because she kept reporting Florida coronavirus statistics, when the state government would have preferred to keep true numbers secret. https://www.npr.org/2020/12/08/944200394/florida-agents-raid-home-of-rebekah-jones-former-state-data-scientist https://www.npr.org/2020/12/08/944200394/florida-agents-raid...
admissionsguy 6y ago
> Historians will look back on this I think they will be more interested in the enthusiastic adoption of totalitarian measures by hitherto democratic societies.
- soared 6y ago
  Agreed. Regardless of whether those decisions were necessary/ethical/correct/etc it is an incredibly unique situation.
- tasty_freeze 6y ago
  I'm reading between your lines, but by "totalitarian measures" do you mean asking people to temporarily wear masks, wash their hands, stay home, and restricting the density of people at gathering spots? If so, that is as totalitarian as requiring people to stop at red stoplights.
  - barnacled 6y ago
    In the UK law is being passed by decree without parliamentary approval, fundamental democratic freedoms are being specifically prohibited - freedom of speech, assembly and association and prosecution of people conducting hitherto legal and proper businesses. The pattern is entirely that of emergency 'enabling law' examples from the past when equally scary things gave them apparent justification. Boiling things down to 'just asking to wear a mask' is at best deeply naive and at worst arrogantly dismissive. Break out of the soundbites and take a moment to think about what's happening in historical context. If you want a serious and reasoned analysis of the worries, concerns and threats under these circumstances (at least from a UK perspective) I firmly recommend you view Lord Sumption's thoughts on this matter (recently retired judge from the supreme court of the UK with a long and highly respected career in the judiciary) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amDv2gk8aa0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amDv2gk8aa0 Unfortunately under circumstances such as the covid-19 mess we all live under (and thank your lucky stars you are in a 1st world country, the 3rd world will suffer at unimaginable levels, highly likely considerably moreso due to covid-19 aid cuts than covid-19 itself) things are considerably greyer than 'conspiracy theory nuts vs. just asking to put a mask on'. If only it were that simple.
tsimionescu 6y ago
> You would not hear the end of it and sanctions and actions against them would be instant and severe. If you really imagine that any country in the world has either the means or the will to impose sanctions on the US or the UK, you definitely live in a different international community than I do. And blaming China, which was giving correct information about the virus by January, for so many states refusing to take serious measures EVEN TODAY would be a total farce. China did try to cover up the virus in December of last year, and should be condemned for it. But they then showed the world how to deal with it and shared all of the relevant information as early as February. The failed responses by all European states and the US, most/all Latin American states, most Middle Eastern states etc. can in no way be blamed on China. If you want to see what a non-story this virus could have been if there were political will to do the right thing, you need only look at Vietnam. They are a 100M-people state taht have 4 times fewer cases in total by today than 10M people Sweden gets each and every day. Edit: China tried to downplay -> China tried to cover up
- barnacled 6y ago
  >If you really imagine that any country in the world has either the means or the will to impose sanctions on the US or the UK, you definitely live in a different international community than I do. I don't think you've been following much of the recent news about brexit or the trade wars with China. Of course countries can condemn and criticise others for their actions. Nearly the entire western press corps have been non-stop criticising your sitting president for the past 4 years. So I think we live in the same world. Why can't the press at the very least be honest and consistent about China? >And blaming China, which was giving correct information about the virus by January, for so many states refusing to take serious measures EVEN TODAY would be a total farce. https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152?lang=en https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152?lang=en Jan 14th - as reported by China. They repeatedly lied (demonstrably) about their death figures and the nature of the disease. Evidence emerged that actually China NEVER reported the pandemic nature of the disease but rather it was (still rather complicit) WHO staff on the ground who reported it. They also permitted international flights but not domestic ones once that virus was known about, hoarded PPE and spread a conspiracy theory about the US having originated the virus. I also find it astonishing that you seem to think a country that could have prevented 95% of cases having not covered it up should be lauded for giving advice about self-isolation and lockdowns after it caused them. The families of 0.95 * 1.5M people thank you so much for the clarification. >China did try to cover up the virus in December of last year, and should be condemned for it. But they then showed the world how to deal with it and shared all of the relevant information as early as February. The failed responses by all European states and the US, most/all Latin American states, most Middle Eastern states etc. can in no way be blamed on China. The contention that delayed lockdowns (delayed due to China lying up until January and continuously lying about their death figures) would have saved all these lives is honestly laughable. The trade off between lockdowns and the economy is very difficult as is contact tracing in a non-totalitarian state. >If you want to see what a non-story this virus could have been if there were political will to do the right thing, you need only look at Vietnam. They are a 100M-people state taht have 4 times fewer cases in total by today than 10M people Sweden gets each and every day. Apples and oranges. Centres of European trade who have considerably wider travel arriving at them and no culture of e.g. mask-wearing and governments ill-adopted to authoritarian measures vs. a communist country with considerably less is not the same at all. And we mustn't forget the impact of climate (hotter climate = considerably less impact). China had a warning in 2003 to shut down their wet markets and arrogantly ignored it. They reopened the wet markets shortly after covid-19 broke out and covered up the outbreak. This is not even getting into the quite plausible walked-out-of-the-lab theories and it's still clear they're responsible for the pandemic. The CCP are a dreadful totalitarian government who should be held to account. Instead they sabre-rattle, lie, spread misinformation and attack any country that dares question their narrative threatening economic consequences (see e.g. Australia). Chinese people are the biggest victims of them. Many more millions will die before that awful group get overthrown. But their time will come.
dahfizz 6y ago
Trump thinks China bad, so the media must avoid saying anything that makes it seem like China bad. It's just how it is.
vkou 6y ago
> unleashing a pandemic which has killed 1.5M people If a similarly dangerous flu mutation jumps from a pig to an undocumented agricultural worker in the United States, and goes viral across the globe, will you also refer to that as 'unleashing a pandemic'? Animal rights advocacy groups have for decades been reminding us that conditions in modern farms are dangerous and unsanitary, so it's not like we don't have any advance warning for it. ... Also, it became incredibly clear to anyone that was paying attention that COVID was a serious threat in January. Yet, most of the western world collectively sat on its hands for the next month and a half. Will your historians also leave a few chapters on the subject of just how incapable our societies are at dealing with epidemics?
- jedberg 6y ago
  Where China failed was not in allowing the virus to jump to a human, it was in covering it up. I'd like to hope that if the same thing happened in the US, the free press would be screaming about how it started, we'd be taking samples and warning other countries, and we would work with other countries to limit travel of those who may be infected.
  - vkou 6y ago
    The coverup was incredibly unsuccessful, and delayed global response by about two weeks. We squandered a lot more than two weeks of time in reacting to it. Given the low quality of press coverage, and of public accountability in the US for how the pandemic was handled, I can't imagine how it would have been any better if we had patient zero. Also, note that the CCP cracked down hard on the leaders responsible for the failure in handling the pandemic. Many senior politicians lost their jobs. The US, meanwhile, nearly re-elected the president, did re-elect the senate, and most of the state governments up for election. You look at that, and tell me - which of the two countries actually held their political class accountable for its failures? Note that the scope of failure in the US was two orders of magnitude worse...
  - sampo 6y ago
    > we'd be taking samples and warning other countries After the first US covid case was detected in Washington state on Jan 20th, the Seattle Flu Study scientists wanted to use their existing flu swabs samples to test if coronavirus was already spreading in the wild in Seattle (it was). But state and federal government did not allow them to. Finally on Feb 25th, they started testing their samples without permission, and found community spread. There are other interpretations of this story, but any sensation-seeking newspaper would surely run this story as the government attempting to cover up that the virus is already spreading. > To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, interviews and emails show, even as weeks crawled by and outbreaks emerged in countries outside of China https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...
jedberg 6y ago
China is the second largest economy in the world, and at current growth rates, will be number one in about five years. You can't put sanctions on them. The world economy would collapse if countries stopped allowing Chinese goods into their economies. We can't just retool overnight. The reason they get away with their concentration camps is precisely for this reason. There is very little leverage the rest of us have to stop them. The best the world can do is slowly twist the screws until they are less powerful. This is already happening. You can see some manufacturing is already moving out of China into other parts of Asia because the US is making small but steady changes on how goods from China can be consumed. This is the only option right now unfortunately.
- GeoAtreides 6y ago
  > There is very little leverage the rest of us have to stop them. That is not true. China main product is physical goods. If the western world would stop consuming irrelevant physical goods (like cocktail umbrellas) and limit itself to essential (and food and western media) then China would be gravely impacted. To be fair, the whole world economy would be impacted, not only china. But the western world only pays lip service to the "Never again" mantra and will do nothing that affects its standard of living, camps or no camps.
  - grugagag 6y ago
    I think we the people could, in theory, make a difference and stop buying anything else but necessities from China or at least reduce the amount of crap we buy from there. But I don’t really see that happening. Western people are addicted to “cheaper” anything and CCP knows that weakness
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    As it should be, consumers do what's best for them. The problem is that we're not able to compete with China because of all our regulations and morals. It may sound like the virtuous choice, until we all become part of China.
  - jedberg 6y ago
mdoms 6y ago
I get that you Americans want to find someone to blame, but your failure to control this virus in your borders is an American problem.
chiefalchemist 6y ago
Blame China? The truth is the international political system is designed to be adversarial and fueled by lack of trust. To expect China or any country to suddenly "de-rogue" is naive. There are countries that have done quite well with Covid. Taiwan comes to mind. Others could have done similar. But instead those others put trust in a system of distrust; an unstable system that they actively contributed to and participated in. That's not on China's shoulders. Furthermore. There were previous respiratory virus pandemics. Where were the lessons learned from that? The stockpile of masks? The stock pile of PPE? I'm not suggesting China is innocent. But as governments go, it's not alone in its guilt.
zubspace 6y ago
Only after watching a short but interesting documentary on youtube about wet markets in China [1] I understood why they are so interested in keeping that industry operational. It's as bad as it is, but unfortunately wet markets also seem to play a massive economic role in some parts over there, where many people depend on it. I'd sure hope, that the western world would put more pressure on China, but instead it seems we'll be facing even bigger pandemic threats in the future.. [1] https://youtu.be/TPpoJGYlW54 https://youtu.be/TPpoJGYlW54
- barnacled 6y ago
  “The majority of the people in China do not eat wildlife animals. Those people who consume these wildlife animals are the rich and the powerful –a small minority.” Thanks for that, I viewed that some time ago and found it very informative. I am not sure I'd agree it plays a big economical role, rather it became an alternative outlet for some producers but mostly it appears to be a luxury item for the rich and thus entirely viable for China to ban. I'd have a lot more sympathy if poor people ate such animals to survive (as with a lot of 'bush meat' in Africa) however that isn't the case. China have no excuse for not closing these, at all. Traditional Chinese 'medicine' where they grind down very many animal parts in extremely unclean environments is another big flashpoint. The risk is at the species-extinction level yet the actions by the world and the coverage by journalists is so low. Astonishes me.
- decebalus1 6y ago
  > It's as bad as it is, but unfortunately wet markets also seem to play a massive economic role in some parts over there, where many people depend on it. Ok, so what? Adapt. Like the rest of the planet did. As an example, Restaurants also play a massive economic role in the western world and pretty much everything involving gatherings of people. Or my grandparents doing their groceries without risking their lives. So we managed to more or less adapt to the new reality. Wet market importance pales in comparison to the changes to the rest of the planet, honestly.
Aunche 6y ago
Officials covered up covid because China takes pandemic response seriously. A mayor of an American city would have no incentive to hide an emerging disease because they know that report would have no impact on its own. In both cases, nothing is done until shit hits the fan. The difference is that China actually managed to control the pandemic, as evident in how you're allowed to be mask-free in many cities. As far as sanctions go, they only make sense if you're goals are strictly economically related. Punishing China with sanctions for the pandemic largely ineffective strategy because you're hurting your own side just as much.
tlear 6y ago
Remember US newspapers running cover for Communists exterminating millions? Not much changed, lure of the totalitarian regime with nice commie tint that can tell plebs what to do is still strong.
namelosw 6y ago
The so-called 'Wet market' is basically the counterpart of the farmer's market in the west. It's the concept of the 'market' for average person, not only for Chinese but also for east and southeast Asia, banning it equals banning the 'market'. In my experience, I feel like 99% of the market I've been don't sell exotic animals. Here's a really good example of an average wet market [0]. Also exotic animal trading has been seriously crashed down in China early this year. I bet you won't be able to see it happening in the following decades at least. [0] https://youtu.be/whbyuy2nHBg https://youtu.be/whbyuy2nHBg
ArnoVW 6y ago
As an aside, this thought experiment is currently being prepared in real life. In 20 years when emigration, drought and storms will have started to cost serious money, what will people do with those that even now continue to say 'the sea level is not rising'?

pjc50 6y ago

Sanctions on the US are inconceivable regardless of what the US does. The pardoning of war criminals goes by with a mere eyeroll.

barnacled 6y ago
I think it's precisely an attitude like this which is the problem. The US/UK and China are incomparable. For example, you can say what you just said without consequence. Try that in China. There is no rule of law there, prosecutors get a 99% conviction rate and political opponents are disappeared. The communist government system has killed over 100M and China actively organ harvests political prisoners. the US and UK may have done terrible wrongs but they are held endlessly to account. I don't want to get into a dreadful endless debate about foreign adventures (I am not a fan of the Afghan or Iraqi wars by the way) but there is just a world of difference between a totalitarian state and a democratic one. Imagine the police turning up and arresting you for that comment and you disappear never to be heard from again. That is the reality for many Chinese dissidents. Don't undervalue the freedoms gifted to you by the imperfect state in which you live.
- pjc50 6y ago
  TBH, sanctions are inconceivable on China for the same reason - they are now simply too large and too much money is at stake. There's also the question of effectiveness. Iran has been under sanctions for most of my adult life, and still appears to be islamist. Ditto north korea. Going further to provoke a war is much worse. The uighur situation is far more concerning than the errors of the pandemic, which was like Chernobyl a mistake and misgovernment rather than intentional.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > Imagine the police turning up and arresting you for that comment https://twitter.com/_SecondThought/status/1332746172570677250 https://twitter.com/_SecondThought/status/133274617257067725...
  - mixedCase 6y ago
    While I found that sort of intimidation tactic reprehensible, an actual arrest is clearly a step beyond it, enslavement or murder as practiced by the CCP is on yet another level.

tfsh 6y ago

I'd be surprised if in your hypothetical scenario there would be sanctions against the US or the UK. Neither country would try and cover it up which is what's been truly despicable about China's response. I do wish the wider world started taking notice of the vile crimes the CCP are committing.

barnacled 6y ago
There'd certainly be rigorous demands on precisely how either country would demonstrate that the risk had been mitigated and widespread damning coverage and condemnation. The CCP (who have all but destroyed and coopted the great history of ancient China) are a despicably evil state who will cause a great many FURTHER deaths if the world doesn't start taking note and action. What is a journalist for if they don't even tell the truth when the elephant in the room is the size of a meteor? Not a single mention in this article and most I read recently.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

lifeformed 6y ago

A lot of diseases originate in Asia for various biological, cultural, and geographic reasons, not always political ones. Swine flu originated in the US and infected over a billion around the world, and the world didn't have "instant and severe" sanctions against the US.

barnacled 6y ago
Swine flu didn't kill 1.5M. Swine flu wasn't covered up at source with doctors arrested and sanctioned. Swine flu didn't come after a very similar outbreak in 2003 where worldwide experts told america 'this particular kind of market is a huge pandemic risk, you should stop that' which america adhered to for a brief period then reopened and promoted. America didn't stop flights internally after the outbreak while permitting international ones. There wasn't indication of the WHO being overtly influenced by the US to cover up the seriousness of swine flu. America acted to address the issue and prevent future outbreaks. China is doing precisely the opposite, and looking to save face rather than save lives. Anybody with half a brain should be aghast at what's going on very blatantly right in front of their eyes. The next pandemic might not have a 0.4% case mortality rate mostly affecting those at the end of their lives/with comorbidities. Taking the point separately about disease prevalence in Asia - absolutely, and there are many reasons as to why - the wide biosphere, the broad consumption of many species not consumed abroad, the prevalence of high risk animals with similar biology to ours but higher tolerance for e.g. fever/respiratory disease (bats are unfortunately extremely good at this) - this is precisely why we have to be extremely vigilent there. This is also what makes the Chinese refusing to allow serious investigation into the outbreak (now only permitted via the highly questionable WHO) along with them opening wet markets shortly after the initial outbreak and worse of all the undenaible cover up particularly egregious. Perhaps the next pandemic would be unavoidable even with China doing all they could to prevent it - but for them to play dice with the future of civilisation with what control they have is unforgiveable.
- sampo 6y ago
  > doctors arrested and sanctioned This is not exactly the same, but police searched the home of a Florida data scientist and confiscated her computers, because she kept reporting Florida coronavirus statistics, when the state government would have preferred to keep true numbers secret. https://www.npr.org/2020/12/08/944200394/florida-agents-raid-home-of-rebekah-jones-former-state-data-scientist https://www.npr.org/2020/12/08/944200394/florida-agents-raid...

admissionsguy 6y ago

> Historians will look back on this I think they will be more interested in the enthusiastic adoption of totalitarian measures by hitherto democratic societies.

soared 6y ago
Agreed. Regardless of whether those decisions were necessary/ethical/correct/etc it is an incredibly unique situation.
tasty_freeze 6y ago
I'm reading between your lines, but by "totalitarian measures" do you mean asking people to temporarily wear masks, wash their hands, stay home, and restricting the density of people at gathering spots? If so, that is as totalitarian as requiring people to stop at red stoplights.
- barnacled 6y ago
  In the UK law is being passed by decree without parliamentary approval, fundamental democratic freedoms are being specifically prohibited - freedom of speech, assembly and association and prosecution of people conducting hitherto legal and proper businesses. The pattern is entirely that of emergency 'enabling law' examples from the past when equally scary things gave them apparent justification. Boiling things down to 'just asking to wear a mask' is at best deeply naive and at worst arrogantly dismissive. Break out of the soundbites and take a moment to think about what's happening in historical context. If you want a serious and reasoned analysis of the worries, concerns and threats under these circumstances (at least from a UK perspective) I firmly recommend you view Lord Sumption's thoughts on this matter (recently retired judge from the supreme court of the UK with a long and highly respected career in the judiciary) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amDv2gk8aa0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amDv2gk8aa0 Unfortunately under circumstances such as the covid-19 mess we all live under (and thank your lucky stars you are in a 1st world country, the 3rd world will suffer at unimaginable levels, highly likely considerably moreso due to covid-19 aid cuts than covid-19 itself) things are considerably greyer than 'conspiracy theory nuts vs. just asking to put a mask on'. If only it were that simple.

tsimionescu 6y ago

> You would not hear the end of it and sanctions and actions against them would be instant and severe. If you really imagine that any country in the world has either the means or the will to impose sanctions on the US or the UK, you definitely live in a different international community than I do. And blaming China, which was giving correct information about the virus by January, for so many states refusing to take serious measures EVEN TODAY would be a total farce. China did try to cover up the virus in December of last year, and should be condemned for it. But they then showed the world how to deal with it and shared all of the relevant information as early as February. The failed responses by all European states and the US, most/all Latin American states, most Middle Eastern states etc. can in no way be blamed on China. If you want to see what a non-story this virus could have been if there were political will to do the right thing, you need only look at Vietnam. They are a 100M-people state taht have 4 times fewer cases in total by today than 10M people Sweden gets each and every day. Edit: China tried to downplay -> China tried to cover up

barnacled 6y ago
>If you really imagine that any country in the world has either the means or the will to impose sanctions on the US or the UK, you definitely live in a different international community than I do. I don't think you've been following much of the recent news about brexit or the trade wars with China. Of course countries can condemn and criticise others for their actions. Nearly the entire western press corps have been non-stop criticising your sitting president for the past 4 years. So I think we live in the same world. Why can't the press at the very least be honest and consistent about China? >And blaming China, which was giving correct information about the virus by January, for so many states refusing to take serious measures EVEN TODAY would be a total farce. https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152?lang=en https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152?lang=en Jan 14th - as reported by China. They repeatedly lied (demonstrably) about their death figures and the nature of the disease. Evidence emerged that actually China NEVER reported the pandemic nature of the disease but rather it was (still rather complicit) WHO staff on the ground who reported it. They also permitted international flights but not domestic ones once that virus was known about, hoarded PPE and spread a conspiracy theory about the US having originated the virus. I also find it astonishing that you seem to think a country that could have prevented 95% of cases having not covered it up should be lauded for giving advice about self-isolation and lockdowns after it caused them. The families of 0.95 * 1.5M people thank you so much for the clarification. >China did try to cover up the virus in December of last year, and should be condemned for it. But they then showed the world how to deal with it and shared all of the relevant information as early as February. The failed responses by all European states and the US, most/all Latin American states, most Middle Eastern states etc. can in no way be blamed on China. The contention that delayed lockdowns (delayed due to China lying up until January and continuously lying about their death figures) would have saved all these lives is honestly laughable. The trade off between lockdowns and the economy is very difficult as is contact tracing in a non-totalitarian state. >If you want to see what a non-story this virus could have been if there were political will to do the right thing, you need only look at Vietnam. They are a 100M-people state taht have 4 times fewer cases in total by today than 10M people Sweden gets each and every day. Apples and oranges. Centres of European trade who have considerably wider travel arriving at them and no culture of e.g. mask-wearing and governments ill-adopted to authoritarian measures vs. a communist country with considerably less is not the same at all. And we mustn't forget the impact of climate (hotter climate = considerably less impact). China had a warning in 2003 to shut down their wet markets and arrogantly ignored it. They reopened the wet markets shortly after covid-19 broke out and covered up the outbreak. This is not even getting into the quite plausible walked-out-of-the-lab theories and it's still clear they're responsible for the pandemic. The CCP are a dreadful totalitarian government who should be held to account. Instead they sabre-rattle, lie, spread misinformation and attack any country that dares question their narrative threatening economic consequences (see e.g. Australia). Chinese people are the biggest victims of them. Many more millions will die before that awful group get overthrown. But their time will come.

dahfizz 6y ago

Trump thinks China bad, so the media must avoid saying anything that makes it seem like China bad. It's just how it is.

vkou 6y ago

> unleashing a pandemic which has killed 1.5M people If a similarly dangerous flu mutation jumps from a pig to an undocumented agricultural worker in the United States, and goes viral across the globe, will you also refer to that as 'unleashing a pandemic'? Animal rights advocacy groups have for decades been reminding us that conditions in modern farms are dangerous and unsanitary, so it's not like we don't have any advance warning for it. ... Also, it became incredibly clear to anyone that was paying attention that COVID was a serious threat in January. Yet, most of the western world collectively sat on its hands for the next month and a half. Will your historians also leave a few chapters on the subject of just how incapable our societies are at dealing with epidemics?

jedberg 6y ago
Where China failed was not in allowing the virus to jump to a human, it was in covering it up. I'd like to hope that if the same thing happened in the US, the free press would be screaming about how it started, we'd be taking samples and warning other countries, and we would work with other countries to limit travel of those who may be infected.
- vkou 6y ago
  The coverup was incredibly unsuccessful, and delayed global response by about two weeks. We squandered a lot more than two weeks of time in reacting to it. Given the low quality of press coverage, and of public accountability in the US for how the pandemic was handled, I can't imagine how it would have been any better if we had patient zero. Also, note that the CCP cracked down hard on the leaders responsible for the failure in handling the pandemic. Many senior politicians lost their jobs. The US, meanwhile, nearly re-elected the president, did re-elect the senate, and most of the state governments up for election. You look at that, and tell me - which of the two countries actually held their political class accountable for its failures? Note that the scope of failure in the US was two orders of magnitude worse...
- sampo 6y ago
  > we'd be taking samples and warning other countries After the first US covid case was detected in Washington state on Jan 20th, the Seattle Flu Study scientists wanted to use their existing flu swabs samples to test if coronavirus was already spreading in the wild in Seattle (it was). But state and federal government did not allow them to. Finally on Feb 25th, they started testing their samples without permission, and found community spread. There are other interpretations of this story, but any sensation-seeking newspaper would surely run this story as the government attempting to cover up that the virus is already spreading. > To repurpose the tests for monitoring the coronavirus, they would need the support of state and federal officials. But nearly everywhere Dr. Chu turned, officials repeatedly rejected the idea, interviews and emails show, even as weeks crawled by and outbreaks emerged in countries outside of China https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-de...

jedberg 6y ago

China is the second largest economy in the world, and at current growth rates, will be number one in about five years. You can't put sanctions on them. The world economy would collapse if countries stopped allowing Chinese goods into their economies. We can't just retool overnight. The reason they get away with their concentration camps is precisely for this reason. There is very little leverage the rest of us have to stop them. The best the world can do is slowly twist the screws until they are less powerful. This is already happening. You can see some manufacturing is already moving out of China into other parts of Asia because the US is making small but steady changes on how goods from China can be consumed. This is the only option right now unfortunately.

GeoAtreides 6y ago
> There is very little leverage the rest of us have to stop them. That is not true. China main product is physical goods. If the western world would stop consuming irrelevant physical goods (like cocktail umbrellas) and limit itself to essential (and food and western media) then China would be gravely impacted. To be fair, the whole world economy would be impacted, not only china. But the western world only pays lip service to the "Never again" mantra and will do nothing that affects its standard of living, camps or no camps.
- grugagag 6y ago
  I think we the people could, in theory, make a difference and stop buying anything else but necessities from China or at least reduce the amount of crap we buy from there. But I don’t really see that happening. Western people are addicted to “cheaper” anything and CCP knows that weakness
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  As it should be, consumers do what's best for them. The problem is that we're not able to compete with China because of all our regulations and morals. It may sound like the virtuous choice, until we all become part of China.
- jedberg 6y ago

mdoms 6y ago

I get that you Americans want to find someone to blame, but your failure to control this virus in your borders is an American problem.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

Blame China? The truth is the international political system is designed to be adversarial and fueled by lack of trust. To expect China or any country to suddenly "de-rogue" is naive. There are countries that have done quite well with Covid. Taiwan comes to mind. Others could have done similar. But instead those others put trust in a system of distrust; an unstable system that they actively contributed to and participated in. That's not on China's shoulders. Furthermore. There were previous respiratory virus pandemics. Where were the lessons learned from that? The stockpile of masks? The stock pile of PPE? I'm not suggesting China is innocent. But as governments go, it's not alone in its guilt.

zubspace 6y ago

Only after watching a short but interesting documentary on youtube about wet markets in China [1] I understood why they are so interested in keeping that industry operational. It's as bad as it is, but unfortunately wet markets also seem to play a massive economic role in some parts over there, where many people depend on it. I'd sure hope, that the western world would put more pressure on China, but instead it seems we'll be facing even bigger pandemic threats in the future.. [1] https://youtu.be/TPpoJGYlW54 https://youtu.be/TPpoJGYlW54

barnacled 6y ago
“The majority of the people in China do not eat wildlife animals. Those people who consume these wildlife animals are the rich and the powerful –a small minority.” Thanks for that, I viewed that some time ago and found it very informative. I am not sure I'd agree it plays a big economical role, rather it became an alternative outlet for some producers but mostly it appears to be a luxury item for the rich and thus entirely viable for China to ban. I'd have a lot more sympathy if poor people ate such animals to survive (as with a lot of 'bush meat' in Africa) however that isn't the case. China have no excuse for not closing these, at all. Traditional Chinese 'medicine' where they grind down very many animal parts in extremely unclean environments is another big flashpoint. The risk is at the species-extinction level yet the actions by the world and the coverage by journalists is so low. Astonishes me.
decebalus1 6y ago
> It's as bad as it is, but unfortunately wet markets also seem to play a massive economic role in some parts over there, where many people depend on it. Ok, so what? Adapt. Like the rest of the planet did. As an example, Restaurants also play a massive economic role in the western world and pretty much everything involving gatherings of people. Or my grandparents doing their groceries without risking their lives. So we managed to more or less adapt to the new reality. Wet market importance pales in comparison to the changes to the rest of the planet, honestly.

Aunche 6y ago

Officials covered up covid because China takes pandemic response seriously. A mayor of an American city would have no incentive to hide an emerging disease because they know that report would have no impact on its own. In both cases, nothing is done until shit hits the fan. The difference is that China actually managed to control the pandemic, as evident in how you're allowed to be mask-free in many cities. As far as sanctions go, they only make sense if you're goals are strictly economically related. Punishing China with sanctions for the pandemic largely ineffective strategy because you're hurting your own side just as much.

tlear 6y ago

Remember US newspapers running cover for Communists exterminating millions? Not much changed, lure of the totalitarian regime with nice commie tint that can tell plebs what to do is still strong.

namelosw 6y ago

The so-called 'Wet market' is basically the counterpart of the farmer's market in the west. It's the concept of the 'market' for average person, not only for Chinese but also for east and southeast Asia, banning it equals banning the 'market'. In my experience, I feel like 99% of the market I've been don't sell exotic animals. Here's a really good example of an average wet market [0]. Also exotic animal trading has been seriously crashed down in China early this year. I bet you won't be able to see it happening in the following decades at least. [0] https://youtu.be/whbyuy2nHBg https://youtu.be/whbyuy2nHBg

ArnoVW 6y ago

As an aside, this thought experiment is currently being prepared in real life. In 20 years when emigration, drought and storms will have started to cost serious money, what will people do with those that even now continue to say 'the sea level is not rising'?