18 ms·

I've studied social/psychological stuff, spent a lot of years suicidal and spent a number of years homeless which was incredibly socially isolating and even neg

I've studied social/psychological stuff, spent a lot of years suicidal and spent a number of years homeless which was incredibly socially isolating and even negatively impacted how people interacted with me online. Some thoughts (intended as a buffet to choose from if it strikes your fancy, not a prescription for "the right way" to do anything at all): 1. It's usually not actually helpful to signal that you are desperate and lonely and your life is in the toilet. Once in a great while, someone will be truly wonderful to you because you did that but it's usually counterproductive. 2. It's usually better to look for one of two things: A chat-friendly space where it's okay to just talk to people or a discussion space on a topic that genuinely interests you. 3. Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends. 4. Support groups have a tendency to be all kinds of drama and not terribly helpful because it tends to be the case that you can't suggest to people "You could try doing things differently" because that will be taken as blaming the victim and it's just really hard to find good ways to help people solve their personal problems. 5. The best way to make friends is to connect with people you have something in common with. So joining discussions about things that interest you is more likely to help you connect socially. 6. Yes, you can have real friends via internet. I've had lots of real friends online over the years. ((germ-free internet hugs)) if you need/want them and happy holidays and all that.

colmvp 6y ago
> 1. It's usually not actually helpful to signal that you are desperate and lonely and your life is in the toilet. Once in a great while, someone will be truly wonderful to you because you did that but it's usually counterproductive. I met up with a close friend a few days ago to lament how tough its been to live alone throughout this Covid period, to get rejected by dozens of companies while job hunting, and to do online dating and not only get rejected by 99% of potentials but have some of the worst first dates I've ever had in my life. One woman was literally multi-tasking while she was on the Zoom 'date' with me. And her response was "I'm sorry that you're going through that" before switching to talking about her kid being noisy. And internally I'm thinking all these years I've spent listening to you complain about your job/husband/baby and this one time I'm being honest about how tough things are right now and you can't even bear to hear me out more than a split second? Give me a fucking break. Covid-19 really revealed who my true friends are. I am quite thankful that I do have a couple friends who I meet on a weekly basis where we check in on one another and keep our spirits up. Without them, I don't think I would've survived these lockdowns without having a mental breakdown.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  Yeah. When it goes like that my internal reaction is typically "Good riddance. Don't let the screen door hit you on your way out. Thank god I don't have to listen to one more minute of your whiny shit ever again because we are so done."
  - glouwbug 6y ago
    People don't like complainers. Plain matter of fact is your significant other sees you as the rock in the relationship, which is likely why the relationship works, and by complaining the foundation their attraction was built on was shaken.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      I was actually thinking of the year when I was bedridden for several months and my life hung in the balance for the entire year and a female friend -- my best friend when I was a military wife stationed in Germany -- managed to get hold of me after not hearing from me for several months while I fought for my life and she went on for 45 minutes about her really minor whiny shit without so much as asking me how I was and I finally interrupted her and said something about how I didn't have the energy for this because I was fighting for my life. That was the end of that phone call and I never heard from her again. Good. Riddance. I absolutely didn't need another thing leeching away my limited energy that year.
      - glouwbug 6y ago
        I hope you're doing well now. Happiest of holidays to you, Doreen.
        DoreenMichele 6y ago
        Other than my perpetually dicey finances, I am doing well. My health seems to have stabilized recently and, with that, I seem to no longer be suicidal. Happy holidays.
mattmanser 6y ago
And Happy Holidays to you too Doreen!
b0rsuk 6y ago
ad. 3: it's an ugly truth, but it makes sense. People often want friends which can provide something for them, even if it's pleasant company. What can a desperate person provide? What can a desperate friend do other kind of friend can't? ad. 6: then I guess I'm really bad at making friends period. It has never worked for me.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  You and I may be defining the word friend differently. It's a really broad term that means different things to different people. I just mean a platonic, symbiotic relationship. You give something, you get something. That can absolutely happen online.
nowherebeen 6y ago
> Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends. This is something so obvious but has eluded me until you said it. I have seen this happen in work settings and have never been able to pinpoint it. Thanks!
- pschimi 6y ago
  It's a problem many women face. Scenario: late night walk home in a quiet street. Suddenly, a group of young males, obviously drunk, approaches from the front. Most women instinctively cross over to the other side of the road, equating distance with safety, without realizing that this is signaling just the kind of vulnerability that makes them appear as potential prey to a certain type of male predator in the first place.
- unabst 6y ago
  You become easy prey for vultures. On a slight tangent but still related, think overdraft fees. We don't live in a world where the bank will give you money when you need it. They will take more away ever since we invented negative numbers. I want to live in a world where help is automatically routed to those in need, even without them asking for it.
sigil 6y ago
We’ve never met or directly interacted on here, but I always enjoy your comments and unique perspective. They make HN a better place. Thanks for sharing, and happy holidays!
SMAAART 6y ago
Your points 1, 3 and 4 are spot on. I wish more people saw the world under these lenses.
mechnesium 6y ago
> it tends to be the case that you can't suggest to people "You could try doing things differently" because that will be taken as blaming the victim Sometimes it takes a friend (or stranger) to make such suggestions. Lonely and depressed people are typically trapped inside their heads, so they need some kind of external stimulus to help them understand that they are in control of their life. The truth sometimes hurts, but calling it victim blaming is nonsense.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I was talking about (online) support groups. It's a statement about a specific environment and it is based on enormous firsthand experience as the person usually being accused of victim blaming for the crime of trying to be helpful.
  - mechnesium 6y ago
    I’ve also found it incredibly difficult to help depressed/lonely people without experiencing some kind of backlash. I have a jobless friend who still lives with his parents, and is always lamenting about how terrible his life is, as if phishing for help. When I offer help, he becomes combative, so I try to just avoid the topic until one day he’s ready for change in his life.
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      It's mostly about moderating, but maybe it will be helpful to you/someone: https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/a-pragmatic-approach-to-thorny-people.html https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/a-pragmatic-appr...
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - gnat 6y ago
        I have always struggled, in real life and online, with people who talk about their complex lives. This gives great advice for how to approach the situation with empathy for them and for the group. Thanks for posting this!
RobertRoberts 6y ago
I've been homeless, lonely and desperate in many ways over many years. I appreciate your comments here. I would add that people who are desperate will drag you down like a drowning person. I have been on both sides of this, and I have had to overcome this "total reliance" on others that makes them go away. But, the best advice I have ever gotten (paraphrasing) was "face YOUR problems". It didn't matter what or how they said it. If you don't want things to be better, they never will get better. The problem is that hopelessness _feels_ permanent. I have just gotten where I can be helpful to others after decades, and I am seeing that _extreme_ patience, caring and understanding allow that difficult discussion about change to happen. Keep saying what you are saying. It was people like you that helped me start facing things on my own. Bravo and peace and love to you.
nicbou 6y ago
I think #4 can be explained by a simple phenomenon: if a group is defined by people's desire to leave it, it will eventually be populated mostly by those who can't. This is how many such communities become toxic over time.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  e.g. dating apps
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - imtringued 6y ago
    I heard that "incels" consider people who finally succeed in their dating life as traitors and therefore as people who didn't belong in the community in the first place.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I know a few things that work. I'm trying to replicate some best practices I know work. This is just a challenging problem space. Some things are actually hard to do.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  > it will eventually be populated mostly by those who can't. Or won’t
tailspin2019 6y ago
> Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends. I think this can depend on your situation and the type of people who you have around you. I'd be tempted to slightly nuance this as: "Signaling desperation can attract predators more often than it attracts real friends." This may not be the case for some, and personally I wouldn't want a universal message of "don't signal desperation" to be heard. I do accept it will depend on whether those around you have your best interests at heart and will provide support, or whether you're in a situation where more caution needs to be taken (which I guess may reflect the situation you were in). That said, I agree with many of your other points and I'm very happy for you that you seem to have moved past some of your struggles, to the point that you are now able to write this very thoughtful and valuable advice for others going through the same things! Edit: typo
pvorb 6y ago
How did it impact how people interact with you online?
chokeartist 6y ago
> 3. Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends. While I have not had this personally happen to me, I have seen more than one friend be the victim of this type of "blowback". While I don't want tell lonely people to not signal that maybe they need/want interaction, I do stress to be careful to whom you open yourself up to (making yourself vulnerable). As sad as it is to say, there are a lot of maladjusted people on the Internet who get their jollies off on trying to hurt and further harm someone who are already going through some type of a rough time.
anonytrary 6y ago
> It's usually not actually helpful to signal that you are desperate and lonely and your life is in the toilet. Once in a great while, someone will be truly wonderful to you because you did that but it's usually counterproductive. Doreen, I always find your posts and comments to be very insightful. I've never thought about it this way, but it makes a lot of sense. Fixating on one's own desperation is basically a waste of time. One could be doing the things that removes them from desperation instead of fixating on not doing those things. It really does seem counterproductive.

colmvp 6y ago

> 1. It's usually not actually helpful to signal that you are desperate and lonely and your life is in the toilet. Once in a great while, someone will be truly wonderful to you because you did that but it's usually counterproductive. I met up with a close friend a few days ago to lament how tough its been to live alone throughout this Covid period, to get rejected by dozens of companies while job hunting, and to do online dating and not only get rejected by 99% of potentials but have some of the worst first dates I've ever had in my life. One woman was literally multi-tasking while she was on the Zoom 'date' with me. And her response was "I'm sorry that you're going through that" before switching to talking about her kid being noisy. And internally I'm thinking all these years I've spent listening to you complain about your job/husband/baby and this one time I'm being honest about how tough things are right now and you can't even bear to hear me out more than a split second? Give me a fucking break. Covid-19 really revealed who my true friends are. I am quite thankful that I do have a couple friends who I meet on a weekly basis where we check in on one another and keep our spirits up. Without them, I don't think I would've survived these lockdowns without having a mental breakdown.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
Yeah. When it goes like that my internal reaction is typically "Good riddance. Don't let the screen door hit you on your way out. Thank god I don't have to listen to one more minute of your whiny shit ever again because we are so done."
- glouwbug 6y ago
  People don't like complainers. Plain matter of fact is your significant other sees you as the rock in the relationship, which is likely why the relationship works, and by complaining the foundation their attraction was built on was shaken.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    I was actually thinking of the year when I was bedridden for several months and my life hung in the balance for the entire year and a female friend -- my best friend when I was a military wife stationed in Germany -- managed to get hold of me after not hearing from me for several months while I fought for my life and she went on for 45 minutes about her really minor whiny shit without so much as asking me how I was and I finally interrupted her and said something about how I didn't have the energy for this because I was fighting for my life. That was the end of that phone call and I never heard from her again. Good. Riddance. I absolutely didn't need another thing leeching away my limited energy that year.
    - glouwbug 6y ago
      I hope you're doing well now. Happiest of holidays to you, Doreen.
      - DoreenMichele 6y ago
        Other than my perpetually dicey finances, I am doing well. My health seems to have stabilized recently and, with that, I seem to no longer be suicidal. Happy holidays.

mattmanser 6y ago

And Happy Holidays to you too Doreen!

b0rsuk 6y ago

ad. 3: it's an ugly truth, but it makes sense. People often want friends which can provide something for them, even if it's pleasant company. What can a desperate person provide? What can a desperate friend do other kind of friend can't? ad. 6: then I guess I'm really bad at making friends period. It has never worked for me.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
You and I may be defining the word friend differently. It's a really broad term that means different things to different people. I just mean a platonic, symbiotic relationship. You give something, you get something. That can absolutely happen online.

nowherebeen 6y ago

> Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends. This is something so obvious but has eluded me until you said it. I have seen this happen in work settings and have never been able to pinpoint it. Thanks!

pschimi 6y ago
It's a problem many women face. Scenario: late night walk home in a quiet street. Suddenly, a group of young males, obviously drunk, approaches from the front. Most women instinctively cross over to the other side of the road, equating distance with safety, without realizing that this is signaling just the kind of vulnerability that makes them appear as potential prey to a certain type of male predator in the first place.
unabst 6y ago
You become easy prey for vultures. On a slight tangent but still related, think overdraft fees. We don't live in a world where the bank will give you money when you need it. They will take more away ever since we invented negative numbers. I want to live in a world where help is automatically routed to those in need, even without them asking for it.

sigil 6y ago

We’ve never met or directly interacted on here, but I always enjoy your comments and unique perspective. They make HN a better place. Thanks for sharing, and happy holidays!

SMAAART 6y ago

Your points 1, 3 and 4 are spot on. I wish more people saw the world under these lenses.

mechnesium 6y ago

> it tends to be the case that you can't suggest to people "You could try doing things differently" because that will be taken as blaming the victim Sometimes it takes a friend (or stranger) to make such suggestions. Lonely and depressed people are typically trapped inside their heads, so they need some kind of external stimulus to help them understand that they are in control of their life. The truth sometimes hurts, but calling it victim blaming is nonsense.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
I was talking about (online) support groups. It's a statement about a specific environment and it is based on enormous firsthand experience as the person usually being accused of victim blaming for the crime of trying to be helpful.
- mechnesium 6y ago
  I’ve also found it incredibly difficult to help depressed/lonely people without experiencing some kind of backlash. I have a jobless friend who still lives with his parents, and is always lamenting about how terrible his life is, as if phishing for help. When I offer help, he becomes combative, so I try to just avoid the topic until one day he’s ready for change in his life.
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    It's mostly about moderating, but maybe it will be helpful to you/someone: https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/a-pragmatic-approach-to-thorny-people.html https://witnesstodestruction.blogspot.com/p/a-pragmatic-appr...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - gnat 6y ago
      I have always struggled, in real life and online, with people who talk about their complex lives. This gives great advice for how to approach the situation with empathy for them and for the group. Thanks for posting this!

RobertRoberts 6y ago

I've been homeless, lonely and desperate in many ways over many years. I appreciate your comments here. I would add that people who are desperate will drag you down like a drowning person. I have been on both sides of this, and I have had to overcome this "total reliance" on others that makes them go away. But, the best advice I have ever gotten (paraphrasing) was "face YOUR problems". It didn't matter what or how they said it. If you don't want things to be better, they never will get better. The problem is that hopelessness _feels_ permanent. I have just gotten where I can be helpful to others after decades, and I am seeing that _extreme_ patience, caring and understanding allow that difficult discussion about change to happen. Keep saying what you are saying. It was people like you that helped me start facing things on my own. Bravo and peace and love to you.

nicbou 6y ago

I think #4 can be explained by a simple phenomenon: if a group is defined by people's desire to leave it, it will eventually be populated mostly by those who can't. This is how many such communities become toxic over time.

durnygbur 6y ago
e.g. dating apps
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- imtringued 6y ago
  I heard that "incels" consider people who finally succeed in their dating life as traitors and therefore as people who didn't belong in the community in the first place.
DoreenMichele 6y ago
I know a few things that work. I'm trying to replicate some best practices I know work. This is just a challenging problem space. Some things are actually hard to do.
tinus_hn 6y ago
> it will eventually be populated mostly by those who can't. Or won’t

tailspin2019 6y ago

> Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends. I think this can depend on your situation and the type of people who you have around you. I'd be tempted to slightly nuance this as: "Signaling desperation can attract predators more often than it attracts real friends." This may not be the case for some, and personally I wouldn't want a universal message of "don't signal desperation" to be heard. I do accept it will depend on whether those around you have your best interests at heart and will provide support, or whether you're in a situation where more caution needs to be taken (which I guess may reflect the situation you were in). That said, I agree with many of your other points and I'm very happy for you that you seem to have moved past some of your struggles, to the point that you are now able to write this very thoughtful and valuable advice for others going through the same things! Edit: typo

pvorb 6y ago

How did it impact how people interact with you online?

chokeartist 6y ago

> 3. Signaling desperation attracts predators far more often than it attracts real friends. While I have not had this personally happen to me, I have seen more than one friend be the victim of this type of "blowback". While I don't want tell lonely people to not signal that maybe they need/want interaction, I do stress to be careful to whom you open yourself up to (making yourself vulnerable). As sad as it is to say, there are a lot of maladjusted people on the Internet who get their jollies off on trying to hurt and further harm someone who are already going through some type of a rough time.

anonytrary 6y ago

> It's usually not actually helpful to signal that you are desperate and lonely and your life is in the toilet. Once in a great while, someone will be truly wonderful to you because you did that but it's usually counterproductive. Doreen, I always find your posts and comments to be very insightful. I've never thought about it this way, but it makes a lot of sense. Fixating on one's own desperation is basically a waste of time. One could be doing the things that removes them from desperation instead of fixating on not doing those things. It really does seem counterproductive.