4 ms·

No-one's mentioning the NHS, but we're fucked because we didn't really sort out MRPQ. That means nurses, doctors, any healthcare professional, who wants to wor

by DanBC 6y ago

No-one's mentioning the NHS, but we're fucked because we didn't really sort out MRPQ. That means nurses, doctors, any healthcare professional, who wants to work in the UK (and we really really need them) needs to get their professional qualification approved before working here. When we were part of Europe we had a mutual recognition system worked out. Also, we used to share information about professional regulation and any concerns or sanctions placed upon those HCPs, and we've probably lost that too.

Brakenshire 6y ago
Good point, presumably the UK could just recognize qualifications unilaterally though. It's actually a situation on the import side has a clear an unequivocal incentive to recognize the standards of the other country, to draw in talent, and not lose it to the other party. It's the one case where each country wants as much of a trade deficit as possible!
nradov 6y ago
If the UK needs more healthcare providers then they should just train more. By hiring a lot of employees from poorer EU countries the NHS left those places with shortages. The Brexit vote was in 2016. The NHS has had plenty of time to prepare.
- wolco2 6y ago
  Providing more internal training opportunities is a winning long term strategy.
- DanBC 6y ago
  Doctors: 5 year degree, 2 foundation years, 3 core trainee years, 3 years as speciality trainee = minimum 13 years.
  - Swenrekcah 6y ago
    Note that all the years after the first 5, one is working as a doctor, earning (often a quite nice) salary. So theoretically they could have boosted the student ranks in 2016 and those would be almost ready. Of course that would require a semblance of a coherent strategy and plan.
    - Balgair 6y ago
      A note for confused US people reading this: MDs in the UK do not go to undergrad to get a bachelors first, they just go to med-school.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      No-one wants to be in an ICU with a brand new FY1 trying to intubate or prone them.
- ben_w 6y ago
  > By hiring a lot of employees from poorer EU countries the NHS left those places with shortages. Not so. My sister-in-law is Filipino by birth, now a U.K. citizen, and trained as a nurse in the Philippines specifically in order to leave her old country. This is apparently a common thing, and a way for Filipino kids to support their families in ways that aren’t possible by remaining in the local economy. > The Brexit vote was in 2016. The NHS has had plenty of time to prepare. AFAICT, it’s a 3-4 year degree even just for nursing (and way longer for doctors). Given the U.K. academic year, students starting a degree in 2016 would’ve already chosen a course before the referendum, so the U.K. has really only had one full cycle of nurse training, while doctors are still limited by the decisions Labour made when they were last in office. How well or badly this goes depends entirely on if the Home Office is willing to turn a blind eye to useful foreigners who may not be technically compliant with the new rules, and how good everyone else in government is at details. I’m not saying you’re doomed, but the current U.K. administration doesn’t have a good record with either of these things.
cameronh90 6y ago
We hire a lot of medical workers from non-EU countries already. AFAIK EU qualified medical personnel are hugely outweighed by non-EU ones. The process seems fairly simple. My girlfriend is a nurse from a non-EU country, and she did have to take an English exam before moving, and then a competency exam after a month of working here. However, she described it essentially as a formality, that if you are a competent nurse who can speak English, it should not be an issue. It took a few hours. It might be more of an issue for HCAs, porters, etc who seem to be much more frequently Eastern European. However given my mother became seriously unwell as a result of a miscommunication between an EU hospital worker who didn't speak adequate English and one of the doctors... well I can't help but feel a little bit of scrutiny on incoming healthcare workers isn't the worst thing ever. The sanctions data is definitely a concern though.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  I think it’s funny that people expect this will translate to a better standard of care. Low wage foreign workers are just a consequence of what happens when politicians undermine public health services. They’ll (at best) just be replaced by low wage, undertrained domestic workers, just as liable to make the same mistakes. Railing at the symptoms of austerity politics does little to cure the disease.
neilwilson 6y ago
And where in the world do they have a surplus of skilled medical staff that can fill the gap of failing to train sufficient people here? What you have there is a fallacy of composition. We can exchange medical staff with the rest of the world but we cannot take them without replacement without reducing medical capacity in the source nation. And that’s called a brain drain. Are you happy doing that to the people of Romania and Pakistan?
- emteycz 6y ago
  The people of Romania and Pakistan are going away because it's really bad in their countries. Are you happy with that?
- ben_w 6y ago
  The Philippines for one, according to my brother whose wife is from the Philippines and who moved to the U.K. with a nursing qualification.
  - neilwilson 6y ago
    And are the health outcomes of the people of the Philippines the best in the world? Or are they exporting their seed corn?

by DanBC 6y ago

Brakenshire 6y ago

Good point, presumably the UK could just recognize qualifications unilaterally though. It's actually a situation on the import side has a clear an unequivocal incentive to recognize the standards of the other country, to draw in talent, and not lose it to the other party. It's the one case where each country wants as much of a trade deficit as possible!

nradov 6y ago

If the UK needs more healthcare providers then they should just train more. By hiring a lot of employees from poorer EU countries the NHS left those places with shortages. The Brexit vote was in 2016. The NHS has had plenty of time to prepare.

wolco2 6y ago
Providing more internal training opportunities is a winning long term strategy.
DanBC 6y ago
Doctors: 5 year degree, 2 foundation years, 3 core trainee years, 3 years as speciality trainee = minimum 13 years.
- Swenrekcah 6y ago
  Note that all the years after the first 5, one is working as a doctor, earning (often a quite nice) salary. So theoretically they could have boosted the student ranks in 2016 and those would be almost ready. Of course that would require a semblance of a coherent strategy and plan.
  - Balgair 6y ago
    A note for confused US people reading this: MDs in the UK do not go to undergrad to get a bachelors first, they just go to med-school.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    No-one wants to be in an ICU with a brand new FY1 trying to intubate or prone them.
ben_w 6y ago
> By hiring a lot of employees from poorer EU countries the NHS left those places with shortages. Not so. My sister-in-law is Filipino by birth, now a U.K. citizen, and trained as a nurse in the Philippines specifically in order to leave her old country. This is apparently a common thing, and a way for Filipino kids to support their families in ways that aren’t possible by remaining in the local economy. > The Brexit vote was in 2016. The NHS has had plenty of time to prepare. AFAICT, it’s a 3-4 year degree even just for nursing (and way longer for doctors). Given the U.K. academic year, students starting a degree in 2016 would’ve already chosen a course before the referendum, so the U.K. has really only had one full cycle of nurse training, while doctors are still limited by the decisions Labour made when they were last in office. How well or badly this goes depends entirely on if the Home Office is willing to turn a blind eye to useful foreigners who may not be technically compliant with the new rules, and how good everyone else in government is at details. I’m not saying you’re doomed, but the current U.K. administration doesn’t have a good record with either of these things.

cameronh90 6y ago

We hire a lot of medical workers from non-EU countries already. AFAIK EU qualified medical personnel are hugely outweighed by non-EU ones. The process seems fairly simple. My girlfriend is a nurse from a non-EU country, and she did have to take an English exam before moving, and then a competency exam after a month of working here. However, she described it essentially as a formality, that if you are a competent nurse who can speak English, it should not be an issue. It took a few hours. It might be more of an issue for HCAs, porters, etc who seem to be much more frequently Eastern European. However given my mother became seriously unwell as a result of a miscommunication between an EU hospital worker who didn't speak adequate English and one of the doctors... well I can't help but feel a little bit of scrutiny on incoming healthcare workers isn't the worst thing ever. The sanctions data is definitely a concern though.

claudeganon 6y ago
I think it’s funny that people expect this will translate to a better standard of care. Low wage foreign workers are just a consequence of what happens when politicians undermine public health services. They’ll (at best) just be replaced by low wage, undertrained domestic workers, just as liable to make the same mistakes. Railing at the symptoms of austerity politics does little to cure the disease.

neilwilson 6y ago

And where in the world do they have a surplus of skilled medical staff that can fill the gap of failing to train sufficient people here? What you have there is a fallacy of composition. We can exchange medical staff with the rest of the world but we cannot take them without replacement without reducing medical capacity in the source nation. And that’s called a brain drain. Are you happy doing that to the people of Romania and Pakistan?

emteycz 6y ago
The people of Romania and Pakistan are going away because it's really bad in their countries. Are you happy with that?
ben_w 6y ago
The Philippines for one, according to my brother whose wife is from the Philippines and who moved to the U.K. with a nursing qualification.
- neilwilson 6y ago
  And are the health outcomes of the people of the Philippines the best in the world? Or are they exporting their seed corn?