4 ms·

Once again, as in decades past, the question is begged: What configurations do engineers at Apple work with ? Multiple monitors is not a fringe use-case or so

by rsync 6y ago

Once again, as in decades past, the question is begged: What configurations do engineers at Apple work with ? Multiple monitors is not a fringe use-case or some weird preference ... in order for these bugs to survive into release software, it must be the case that somehow, inexplicably, Apple engineers don't use multiple monitors. How can that be ? Who are they ? What do they work with ?

bluedino 6y ago
They have thousands of people that could be testing iOS as wells but there are so many horrible bugs.
brundolf 6y ago
I'm not an Apple engineer, but I do development without a second monitor. I rarely miss it; it's not often that I actually need to look at two different full-screen windows at the same time. Usually alt-tabbing works just as well, and keeps my visual landscape more focused.
- wyclif 6y ago
  Also not an Apple engineer, but I have worked for a different FAANG. I've never used two monitors; I prefer one large monitor with the top edge of the screen as close to eye level as possible. Lots of people seem to jack up their monitors on a stack of O'Reilly books or whatever, but that makes my eyes tired from tilting my head up. I have enough screen real estate to do a typical engineering workflow and I've never missed not having a second monitor.
  - jacobolus 6y ago
    > top edge of the screen as close to eye level as possible. Lots of people seem to jack up their monitors on a stack of O'Reilly books or whatever, This was based on some (completely bogus) "ergonomics" advice which somehow worked its way into European office furniture standards and various official seeming guides. It is (wrong) conventional wisdom that the middle of the display should be at eye level. If you track down stuff written by anatomy and vision experts, you'll find that among static positions it is best (causes least neck and/or eye strain) to keep the top edge at approximately eye level, push the display as far away from the head as possible given the desk and general context (it is much easier to focus on something 1 meter away for an extended time than something 20 cm away), and tilt the display so that the bottom is closer than the top, so that a perpendicular ray from the middle of the display is roughly aimed at the face. But keep the head upright and supported directly above the spinal column with the back straight (not tilting the head forward/back or resting it on a fixed external support for extended periods of time). This physical arrangement works because human eyes are set up physiologically to easily swivel down and to focus closer and converge with less strain in the bottom part of the field of view than the top part. (Presumably because when we evolved looking down typically involved closer objects than looking straight ahead.) Eyes are great at looking alternately straight ahead or substantially downward without moving or tilting the head. (Personally I appreciate having a second physical display next to the first, though how useful it is depends on the task and software.)
    - wyclif 6y ago
      Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you are constantly tilting your head back so that your eyes are not on a level plane (looking up constantly), it increases eye strain because they've found that your tear ducts have to work harder to moisten your eyes. Another reason why setting up your monitor as you describe is better ergonomics.
      - MichaelZuo 6y ago
        “constantly tilting your head back” Can you clarify what that means as in the ideal case the head is not tilted forward to begin with.
        jacobolus 6y ago
        It is more comfortable to look downward than look upward, while the head is in a fixed position. If you often need to look upward for longer than a glance, you are likely to tilt your head back a bit to relieve strain on eye muscles (trading it for strain on neck muscles). Often people compensate by resting their head on a headrest and leaning back against a back rest. Often this causes shoulder and back strain. Then they use an armrest or palmrest to type, causing RSI from static loads on bent wrists. There are two main ways to avoid static muscle loads that cause discomfort and long-term problems. One is to regularly change position. Another is to default to a neutral and comfortable basic position.
        MichaelZuo 6y ago
        Do you know what the relative trade off is between eye muscle strain and neck muscle strain? Although intuitively the head is a lot heavier than the eyeballs the neck muscles should be much stronger to compensate. Perhaps the neck spinal column will be deformed after a while?
        jacobolus 6y ago
        You can reduce both by lowering the display so that its top is roughly at eye level (or maybe up to 5° above or something), and tilting it backward a bit. Ideally you want to find a neutral position where there is as little static load on any of your muscles as possible (including the eye muscles used for accommodation (focusing), convergence, and turning your eyes around). Temporary dynamic muscle loads are fine, but static loads get tiring and lead to long-term problems.
- j1elo 6y ago
  I doubt it is a matter of needing a second monitor, nobody said that. I can also live and work through the summer without aircon, doesn't mean it's not a very nice thing to have that can help with productivity. I never understand people who object that they don't see the point of having a bigger table to lay out all their papers because layering them one over the other and swapping paper sheets or notebook pages is enough for them.
- stock_toaster 6y ago
  > I do development without a second monitor. Same here. Might have something to do with age, as popular deskop/external monitor sizes these days just seem _enormous_ to me -- back in the day a 21" monitor was considered large (24" and 27" seem very common today). You almost have to turn your head back and forth just to see the entire screen!
  - rsync 6y ago
    I have triple 32" monitors and I don't use them to multitask, per se ... I use them to display multiple contexts and inputs for single tasks. It is not uncommon for me to be working on a single task that involves a (long) terminal window, a browser window and a second browser window. Sometimes one of the screens is completely blank/empty and I much prefer that to the lack of a screen at all.
    - stock_toaster 6y ago
      I guess much as with housing, some like small homes and some prefer "McMansions". If it works for you, then right on.
  - stevewodil 6y ago
    I went from using a 34" ultrawide to just the laptop because I decided I would rather sit in a lounge chair than at a desk
- m463 6y ago
  that's a good idea. better ergonomics. Terrible thing for your neck and shoulders to work twisted to the side. (good ergonomics are basically keeping your body balanced in a neutral position)
zionic 6y ago
This is especially true for portrait mode monitors. Ever since Catalina portrait mode/90 dev rotation screens reset to landscape every time you unlock the machine. I do it 5-6 times a day and have the mouse/key presses memorized. Yes, YES I want to keep these changes!!!
amelius 6y ago
> What configurations do engineers at Apple work with ? Unix workstations for EDA tools such as Cadence. Windows machines for mechanical engineering CAD tools.
- throwaway9980 6y ago
  Software engineers. You know, the people actually building the OS that doesn’t work, what do they use?
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >Windows machines for mechanical engineering CAD tools. Also windows for all firmware development.
idiocrat 6y ago
Fixing bugs is not profitable.
noncoml 6y ago
There must be some engineers that noticed that, probably in a different team, that tried to raise their concern one way or another but probably hit the bureaucracy wall.
m463 6y ago
In my experience, most companies put their employees on their own equipment, possibly prototype equipment. I've worked places where the only customers using all-branded-equipment were the ones who drank all the kool-aid, every drop. So if you work at dell, you're probably using a dell computer, a dell monitor and a dell-approved operating system. If you're at apple, I'm guessing you're working on an apple computer, apple display, apple keyboard, apple mouse (ick!) or trackpad. You're probably not using a an apple computer and a dell monitor (although that's what I've done for years and years). I'm sure there are lots more cross-platform checks with covid and people working at home - but probably not as much new stuff.
cwhiz 6y ago
I have two external monitors, and it works. It must be some weird fringe scenario. They still should have caught it, but it’s not impacting every single user.

by rsync 6y ago

bluedino 6y ago

They have thousands of people that could be testing iOS as wells but there are so many horrible bugs.

brundolf 6y ago

I'm not an Apple engineer, but I do development without a second monitor. I rarely miss it; it's not often that I actually need to look at two different full-screen windows at the same time. Usually alt-tabbing works just as well, and keeps my visual landscape more focused.

wyclif 6y ago
Also not an Apple engineer, but I have worked for a different FAANG. I've never used two monitors; I prefer one large monitor with the top edge of the screen as close to eye level as possible. Lots of people seem to jack up their monitors on a stack of O'Reilly books or whatever, but that makes my eyes tired from tilting my head up. I have enough screen real estate to do a typical engineering workflow and I've never missed not having a second monitor.
- jacobolus 6y ago
  > top edge of the screen as close to eye level as possible. Lots of people seem to jack up their monitors on a stack of O'Reilly books or whatever, This was based on some (completely bogus) "ergonomics" advice which somehow worked its way into European office furniture standards and various official seeming guides. It is (wrong) conventional wisdom that the middle of the display should be at eye level. If you track down stuff written by anatomy and vision experts, you'll find that among static positions it is best (causes least neck and/or eye strain) to keep the top edge at approximately eye level, push the display as far away from the head as possible given the desk and general context (it is much easier to focus on something 1 meter away for an extended time than something 20 cm away), and tilt the display so that the bottom is closer than the top, so that a perpendicular ray from the middle of the display is roughly aimed at the face. But keep the head upright and supported directly above the spinal column with the back straight (not tilting the head forward/back or resting it on a fixed external support for extended periods of time). This physical arrangement works because human eyes are set up physiologically to easily swivel down and to focus closer and converge with less strain in the bottom part of the field of view than the top part. (Presumably because when we evolved looking down typically involved closer objects than looking straight ahead.) Eyes are great at looking alternately straight ahead or substantially downward without moving or tilting the head. (Personally I appreciate having a second physical display next to the first, though how useful it is depends on the task and software.)
  - wyclif 6y ago
    Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you are constantly tilting your head back so that your eyes are not on a level plane (looking up constantly), it increases eye strain because they've found that your tear ducts have to work harder to moisten your eyes. Another reason why setting up your monitor as you describe is better ergonomics.
    - MichaelZuo 6y ago
      “constantly tilting your head back” Can you clarify what that means as in the ideal case the head is not tilted forward to begin with.
      - jacobolus 6y ago
        It is more comfortable to look downward than look upward, while the head is in a fixed position. If you often need to look upward for longer than a glance, you are likely to tilt your head back a bit to relieve strain on eye muscles (trading it for strain on neck muscles). Often people compensate by resting their head on a headrest and leaning back against a back rest. Often this causes shoulder and back strain. Then they use an armrest or palmrest to type, causing RSI from static loads on bent wrists. There are two main ways to avoid static muscle loads that cause discomfort and long-term problems. One is to regularly change position. Another is to default to a neutral and comfortable basic position.
        MichaelZuo 6y ago
        Do you know what the relative trade off is between eye muscle strain and neck muscle strain? Although intuitively the head is a lot heavier than the eyeballs the neck muscles should be much stronger to compensate. Perhaps the neck spinal column will be deformed after a while?
        jacobolus 6y ago
        You can reduce both by lowering the display so that its top is roughly at eye level (or maybe up to 5° above or something), and tilting it backward a bit. Ideally you want to find a neutral position where there is as little static load on any of your muscles as possible (including the eye muscles used for accommodation (focusing), convergence, and turning your eyes around). Temporary dynamic muscle loads are fine, but static loads get tiring and lead to long-term problems.
j1elo 6y ago
I doubt it is a matter of needing a second monitor, nobody said that. I can also live and work through the summer without aircon, doesn't mean it's not a very nice thing to have that can help with productivity. I never understand people who object that they don't see the point of having a bigger table to lay out all their papers because layering them one over the other and swapping paper sheets or notebook pages is enough for them.
stock_toaster 6y ago
> I do development without a second monitor. Same here. Might have something to do with age, as popular deskop/external monitor sizes these days just seem _enormous_ to me -- back in the day a 21" monitor was considered large (24" and 27" seem very common today). You almost have to turn your head back and forth just to see the entire screen!
- rsync 6y ago
  I have triple 32" monitors and I don't use them to multitask, per se ... I use them to display multiple contexts and inputs for single tasks. It is not uncommon for me to be working on a single task that involves a (long) terminal window, a browser window and a second browser window. Sometimes one of the screens is completely blank/empty and I much prefer that to the lack of a screen at all.
  - stock_toaster 6y ago
    I guess much as with housing, some like small homes and some prefer "McMansions". If it works for you, then right on.
- stevewodil 6y ago
  I went from using a 34" ultrawide to just the laptop because I decided I would rather sit in a lounge chair than at a desk
m463 6y ago
that's a good idea. better ergonomics. Terrible thing for your neck and shoulders to work twisted to the side. (good ergonomics are basically keeping your body balanced in a neutral position)

zionic 6y ago

This is especially true for portrait mode monitors. Ever since Catalina portrait mode/90 dev rotation screens reset to landscape every time you unlock the machine. I do it 5-6 times a day and have the mouse/key presses memorized. Yes, YES I want to keep these changes!!!

amelius 6y ago

> What configurations do engineers at Apple work with ? Unix workstations for EDA tools such as Cadence. Windows machines for mechanical engineering CAD tools.

throwaway9980 6y ago
Software engineers. You know, the people actually building the OS that doesn’t work, what do they use?
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>Windows machines for mechanical engineering CAD tools. Also windows for all firmware development.

idiocrat 6y ago

Fixing bugs is not profitable.

noncoml 6y ago

There must be some engineers that noticed that, probably in a different team, that tried to raise their concern one way or another but probably hit the bureaucracy wall.

m463 6y ago

In my experience, most companies put their employees on their own equipment, possibly prototype equipment. I've worked places where the only customers using all-branded-equipment were the ones who drank all the kool-aid, every drop. So if you work at dell, you're probably using a dell computer, a dell monitor and a dell-approved operating system. If you're at apple, I'm guessing you're working on an apple computer, apple display, apple keyboard, apple mouse (ick!) or trackpad. You're probably not using a an apple computer and a dell monitor (although that's what I've done for years and years). I'm sure there are lots more cross-platform checks with covid and people working at home - but probably not as much new stuff.

cwhiz 6y ago

I have two external monitors, and it works. It must be some weird fringe scenario. They still should have caught it, but it’s not impacting every single user.