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> demi-god I agree that Jordan was an amazing player, and I think he narrowly tops Lebron as the best of all time, but I also think Jordan benefited from a ver

> demi-god I agree that Jordan was an amazing player, and I think he narrowly tops Lebron as the best of all time, but I also think Jordan benefited from a very precise moment in NBA history: the league's media reach became truly global and the established media was still pretty much the only source of information about NBA players. No TMZ, no random phone videos from clubs, no social media. It was the perfect setup to convince a huge number of people that this dude was a demi-god. If Jordan played today, I think he'd face way more scrutiny of the gambler/"apolitical"/bully parts of his personality, and while he'd probably win plenty of MVPs, I don't think he'd achieve the same iconic status.

adventured 6y ago
On the flip side Lebron benefits from dramatic rule changes in how physical the NBA isn't today. Both in his stats and longevity. All you have to do is go on YouTube and watch the fights from the 1980s. And of course everyone is familiar with how Jordan was brutalized in the 1987-1993 era, playing teams like the Knicks and Pistons. Today's NBA is soft, fragile, weak, and little more than a three point shooting exercise. It's mediocre basketball. Do a comparison on steal figures now vs then; during his prime it was normal for Jordan to have 2.8 to 3.2 steals per game in a season, today the NBA leader will be closer to 2 to 2.2 per game. Now you can barely sneeze on the offensive player with the ball or it's a foul. Combined with 3-point chucking and zero defense, it fully explains why scores are so comically high now versus the 1990s and so many players average over 20-25 points per game. It's the equivalent to the NFL becoming soft, watering down passing defense, so they can run up scores and turn the league into a 90% passing game so they can pump up ratings for the $$$ (same fraud MLB pulled jacking up homerun figures).
- croissants 6y ago
  I've had this argument before, and this is very off-topic, but that seems to be the nature of sports arguments :). I agree that the NBA was far more physical in Jordan's era and that LeBron has never had to go through that. But the style of play cuts both ways! The biggest difference, I think, is that zone defense was illegal for (almost) Jordan's whole career. This allowed Jordan to showcase his isolation scoring, and I think Jordan was clearly the best isolation scorer ever. This argument is more or less convincing depending on how you factor in the greater physicality (e.g. handchecking). My hypothesis is that LeBron would have been extremely hard to guard alone even with the relaxed rules. IIRC, Miami Lebron weighed 260+ and was still faster than most wings; Jordan topped out around 220 in the 2nd 3-peat. The available evidence suggests that LeBron is pretty hard to hurt -- unless you think all NBA players have somehow become more injury-prone, his almost spotless injury record relative to his peers is remarkable. We seem to have different aesthetic preferences for basketball. I think late 90s basketball is ugly as hell! But I'll argue that the cross-era comparisons are not that easy, and both players are hard to extricate from the style of their eras anyway.
  - kodt 6y ago
    I think another factor is that LeBron has a history of flopping and complaining about non-calls. People imagine that LeBron in the 90s and see him getting crushed. But of course perhaps he flops because it is sadly part of that game today and had he joined in the late 80s he probably would have played differently. It is really hard to speculate on these things.

adventured 6y ago

On the flip side Lebron benefits from dramatic rule changes in how physical the NBA isn't today. Both in his stats and longevity. All you have to do is go on YouTube and watch the fights from the 1980s. And of course everyone is familiar with how Jordan was brutalized in the 1987-1993 era, playing teams like the Knicks and Pistons. Today's NBA is soft, fragile, weak, and little more than a three point shooting exercise. It's mediocre basketball. Do a comparison on steal figures now vs then; during his prime it was normal for Jordan to have 2.8 to 3.2 steals per game in a season, today the NBA leader will be closer to 2 to 2.2 per game. Now you can barely sneeze on the offensive player with the ball or it's a foul. Combined with 3-point chucking and zero defense, it fully explains why scores are so comically high now versus the 1990s and so many players average over 20-25 points per game. It's the equivalent to the NFL becoming soft, watering down passing defense, so they can run up scores and turn the league into a 90% passing game so they can pump up ratings for the $$$ (same fraud MLB pulled jacking up homerun figures).

croissants 6y ago
I've had this argument before, and this is very off-topic, but that seems to be the nature of sports arguments :). I agree that the NBA was far more physical in Jordan's era and that LeBron has never had to go through that. But the style of play cuts both ways! The biggest difference, I think, is that zone defense was illegal for (almost) Jordan's whole career. This allowed Jordan to showcase his isolation scoring, and I think Jordan was clearly the best isolation scorer ever. This argument is more or less convincing depending on how you factor in the greater physicality (e.g. handchecking). My hypothesis is that LeBron would have been extremely hard to guard alone even with the relaxed rules. IIRC, Miami Lebron weighed 260+ and was still faster than most wings; Jordan topped out around 220 in the 2nd 3-peat. The available evidence suggests that LeBron is pretty hard to hurt -- unless you think all NBA players have somehow become more injury-prone, his almost spotless injury record relative to his peers is remarkable. We seem to have different aesthetic preferences for basketball. I think late 90s basketball is ugly as hell! But I'll argue that the cross-era comparisons are not that easy, and both players are hard to extricate from the style of their eras anyway.
- kodt 6y ago
  I think another factor is that LeBron has a history of flopping and complaining about non-calls. People imagine that LeBron in the 90s and see him getting crushed. But of course perhaps he flops because it is sadly part of that game today and had he joined in the late 80s he probably would have played differently. It is really hard to speculate on these things.