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Some people value that they can get stuff done for themselves. I've grown up helping with various renovations around our home (floor tiling, wallpapers, buildin

Some people value that they can get stuff done for themselves. I've grown up helping with various renovations around our home (floor tiling, wallpapers, building kitchen furniture etc), and they are fond memories and it makes a difference to how you feel living in a place. I know today mobility and renting is everything, but there is quite a distinct feel of living in actually your own place that you've worked on over the years with family or friends helping out. Now, we were poorer than most people around here for sure. Still, it's not the same when you just pay others to do it. What's life about? What do you buy that time for? To have more time to "consume content"? Or to go on a vacation and sit at the beach being served cocktails? For many people, these quests for finding good deals, fixing stuff, etc. is like a "side project" or a side quest that contributes to their self-image and life satisfaction long-term. If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you. Now if you really loath some ways of spending time, sure try to make others do those. But not every "hassle" is wasted time. You can even learn new interesting things, interact with different types of people, while getting advice for laying your floor tiles or whatever. I don't think this super productivity focused view is healthy long term, that all time must be spent either on brushing up on new job-related skills to chase more money, or on actual work time to fight for higher job positions, to make your hourly time even more expensive, so you do even less worldly stuff... I wonder if there will come a new celebrity-backed fad (following mindfulness, minimalism, normcore etc.) where people do these mundane tasks themselves and give it some cute snappy buzzwordy name and there will be scientific studies that it increases one's well being.

redleggedfrog 6y ago
"If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you." I take your point, but don't worry, I'm living with the saved time. The CSS example was probably not as good as it could have been. Instead I'd probably be visiting my kids or something like that. I don't think "super productivity" is healthy long term as well. "I wonder if there will come a new celebrity-backed fad (following mindfulness, minimalism, normcore etc.) where people do these mundane tasks themselves and give it some cute snappy buzzwordy name and there will be scientific studies that it increases one's well being." Would that be the DIY thing?
- jethro_tell 6y ago
  I think that's just DIY. Does doing the dishes increase happiness? Unlikely. But fixing something or cooking a new dish is going to venture into learning and thinking and hopefully some level of increased awareness of how other parts of the world work. With that said, there can be real value to walking mindlessly behind a lawn mower for a few hours.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I find doing the dishes somewhat meditative. If I've spent the morning grappling with a difficult work problem then I need something mindless to do for 20 minutes.
PlugTunin 6y ago
There is merit to the parent comment advising that some DIY excursions are best left alone, but I appreciate the adventure that comes with grinding my wheels from time to time. Hassle builds character! My buddy is taking years to renovate his house, but it's a great story, like something you see in Architectural Digest.
- tharkun__ 6y ago
  The thing is that there's a difference between putting up a new wall (been there, enjoyed that) and hiring someone else to fix the toilet flange leak if you ask me :) That's a tongue in cheek way of saying that I don't mind paying for the stuff that I would not enjoy trying to do myself. It's not limited to smelly stuff. I definitely didn't want to do the re-piping of the house (had Kitex) myself. But I definitely enjoyed the wall building and dry walling. I loved putting in the door and what I learned during that but I wouldn't want to do the window replacement even though it's kinda the same except for the insulation and water proofing part (which is where I want the professionals to do it). But then I will be looking into the shed water leak myself (wet garden tools and possibly some $$ spent on a new 2x4 or OSB roof board, sure). Leaky house with mold issues? Thabjs but no thanks. I got a day job :)
  - PlugTunin 6y ago
    Sounds like you've struck a great balance between being unafraid to tackle some cool, challenging projects and sniffing out the tasks that aren't worth your trouble. Knowing the boundaries of your expertise is key, no matter the domain.
amelius 6y ago
I think GP agrees with you because they said: > In the saved time I've polished up my CSS skills...
powersnail 6y ago
> If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you. There are still a lot of things to do even if you have eliminated all the hassles. Singing, writing, learning a new language, surfing, volunteering as a firefighter, just to name a few. I get it. Some people likes fixing stuff, building stuff with their hands, and it's perfectly interesting to them. At the same time, it's not that interesting to other people. Just like not everyone cooks, and that doesn't mean they are not enjoying their meal. Last week, I spent a few hours learning about plumbing, in an attempt to fix my disposal. My quest failed, and I had to call a plumber, who fixed it in under a minute. Next time, I'll call her directly.
- war1025 6y ago
  > volunteering as a firefighter This seems like exactly the case where I would apply the "There's a professional for that" maxim.
  - powersnail 6y ago
    There are not enough professional firefighters in some places.
    - starpilot 6y ago
      There are too many in others. They mostly do housecalls, serving as ambulances, since house fires are rare today.
      - jethro_tell 6y ago
        Too many in cities but in rural areas, there are never enough. And they are never close enough. Lots of those places, the volunteers train once a month and carry a pager. They are all spread out over the county. When the page goes off, they leave work or home and go to the scene to be useful.
  - cx4life 6y ago
    This made me laugh my drink through my nose -- and I've had my life saved by volunteer fire fighters in the PNW backcountry. A gifted, timely amateur beats an absent professional any day.
mark-r 6y ago
I tried to tile a room in my basement once. Took forever and I only got half done. Hired a professional to finish the job, and it took him less than a day. Then he told me the things I had done wrong.
ModernMech 6y ago
Luckily I got this advice early on, and I agree it’s aged well as I get older. It was given to me as “Time is your most precious resource. You can always make more money. You’ll never get back a second of your time.” Words I live by.
andreilys 6y ago
Some people have spent thousands of hours perfecting their craft. To think you can produce the same output with a few hours of YouTube tutorials is laughable. I’m happy to pay these experts because I know I will get my moneys worth. It’ll also free up my time to explore things I have a higher interest and affinity for
- gerbler 6y ago
  If very high-skilled work is needed and/or specialized tools (replacing a front-door, plumbing a gas-line), I agree, it's hard to match a skilled professional. In my experience, the vast majority of household diy/repair does not require that level of skill. It can also be hard to find a really skilled person that cares about your home as much as you. For me, I tend towards fixing/making everything myself unless it requires high-skill or specialized tools.
  - war1025 6y ago
    > It can also be hard to find a really skilled person that cares about your home as much as you. This is something I've found to be true. We bought a house that we later found had some significant water damage issues. I hired a professional the first time we noticed it and he did little more than paper over the problem. I ended up spending the next two years basically tearing the wall apart and redoing all the sheathing and insulation and house wrap. Sure I could have hired someone and they would have eventually done all that for me, but I'm pretty confident it would have been in the tens of thousands of dollars by that point. Caring about the end result will get you a long way. But part of it is probably also that I come from a working class family and was immersed in the basics of that sort of work for my entire growing up time.
- 0xffff2 6y ago
  How do you know you're hiring an expert? It's easy to find people claiming to be experts who are willing to take your money. It's virtually impossible to evaluate whether they're any good or not when you're not an expert either. If I do it myself, I might take three times as long, but at least I know what I'm going to get.
gerbler 6y ago
I completely agree. I've found these are generally challenging tasks that pull you into a flow state, and when doing them with family, contribute to a great sense of accomplishment.
jdhzzz 6y ago
"If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you." In general (90% of the time) I've found paying someone to do something merely alters the hassle. Now I have to deal through someone to get the desired result. And I'm paying for the privilege (increments hassle). There are very few times I've been able to pay money, state the desired result, and remain hands off.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Yep, it's easy to get screwed over. When we had major renovations, one knowledgeable family member always had to be around to make sure things are going well. The main repairs guy is obviously hostile to this, they are the pros after all, but if you take a hands off approach you can get screwed. And other handymen don't like taking up and finishing/fixing botched jobs. You can also try to run after your money. Sure you can delegate that too, pay a lawyer etc. If you're really rich you can just have someone who does all this for you and you just sit in your chair and enjoy life and point to things in catalogues and everything else just appears around you.
neogodless 6y ago
There are ripple effects from discovering that you're capable of doing things that professionals get paid to do. Good ripple effects. My wife has not only embraced me doing more things around the house (and to me, this is getting to do more things) as she's seen what I can do, but she's also embraced her own capabilities more as she's discovered what she can do. There's also cases where professionals have different skill levels, or just a bad day, and make mistakes working on your issue. But when you did the initial build or repair yourself, you often learn enough to come in and troubleshoot an issue that arises, without having to schedule a troubleshooting session (or five, as is the case of my brand new roof that still has a new leak after quite a few visits and failure to identify the cause.) The more capable you find yourself, the more you can readily learn to shape your immediate environment to be the world you want to live in. And arguably, there's more satisfaction in that than paying others to shape the world for you.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Also, paying someone to care about it as much as you do may be out of your wallet (well, perhaps not the case for SV devs reading). The attention to detail and actual time that you are willing to put into your own home is just different from someone for whom it's just another job.
redleggedfrog 6y ago
I wanted to say great replies - thoughtful and reasoned and polite. I read them all. Thanks HN folks.

redleggedfrog 6y ago

"If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you." I take your point, but don't worry, I'm living with the saved time. The CSS example was probably not as good as it could have been. Instead I'd probably be visiting my kids or something like that. I don't think "super productivity" is healthy long term as well. "I wonder if there will come a new celebrity-backed fad (following mindfulness, minimalism, normcore etc.) where people do these mundane tasks themselves and give it some cute snappy buzzwordy name and there will be scientific studies that it increases one's well being." Would that be the DIY thing?

jethro_tell 6y ago
I think that's just DIY. Does doing the dishes increase happiness? Unlikely. But fixing something or cooking a new dish is going to venture into learning and thinking and hopefully some level of increased awareness of how other parts of the world work. With that said, there can be real value to walking mindlessly behind a lawn mower for a few hours.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I find doing the dishes somewhat meditative. If I've spent the morning grappling with a difficult work problem then I need something mindless to do for 20 minutes.

PlugTunin 6y ago

There is merit to the parent comment advising that some DIY excursions are best left alone, but I appreciate the adventure that comes with grinding my wheels from time to time. Hassle builds character! My buddy is taking years to renovate his house, but it's a great story, like something you see in Architectural Digest.

tharkun__ 6y ago
The thing is that there's a difference between putting up a new wall (been there, enjoyed that) and hiring someone else to fix the toilet flange leak if you ask me :) That's a tongue in cheek way of saying that I don't mind paying for the stuff that I would not enjoy trying to do myself. It's not limited to smelly stuff. I definitely didn't want to do the re-piping of the house (had Kitex) myself. But I definitely enjoyed the wall building and dry walling. I loved putting in the door and what I learned during that but I wouldn't want to do the window replacement even though it's kinda the same except for the insulation and water proofing part (which is where I want the professionals to do it). But then I will be looking into the shed water leak myself (wet garden tools and possibly some $$ spent on a new 2x4 or OSB roof board, sure). Leaky house with mold issues? Thabjs but no thanks. I got a day job :)
- PlugTunin 6y ago
  Sounds like you've struck a great balance between being unafraid to tackle some cool, challenging projects and sniffing out the tasks that aren't worth your trouble. Knowing the boundaries of your expertise is key, no matter the domain.

amelius 6y ago

I think GP agrees with you because they said: > In the saved time I've polished up my CSS skills...

powersnail 6y ago

> If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you. There are still a lot of things to do even if you have eliminated all the hassles. Singing, writing, learning a new language, surfing, volunteering as a firefighter, just to name a few. I get it. Some people likes fixing stuff, building stuff with their hands, and it's perfectly interesting to them. At the same time, it's not that interesting to other people. Just like not everyone cooks, and that doesn't mean they are not enjoying their meal. Last week, I spent a few hours learning about plumbing, in an attempt to fix my disposal. My quest failed, and I had to call a plumber, who fixed it in under a minute. Next time, I'll call her directly.

war1025 6y ago
> volunteering as a firefighter This seems like exactly the case where I would apply the "There's a professional for that" maxim.
- powersnail 6y ago
  There are not enough professional firefighters in some places.
  - starpilot 6y ago
    There are too many in others. They mostly do housecalls, serving as ambulances, since house fires are rare today.
    - jethro_tell 6y ago
      Too many in cities but in rural areas, there are never enough. And they are never close enough. Lots of those places, the volunteers train once a month and carry a pager. They are all spread out over the county. When the page goes off, they leave work or home and go to the scene to be useful.
- cx4life 6y ago
  This made me laugh my drink through my nose -- and I've had my life saved by volunteer fire fighters in the PNW backcountry. A gifted, timely amateur beats an absent professional any day.

mark-r 6y ago

I tried to tile a room in my basement once. Took forever and I only got half done. Hired a professional to finish the job, and it took him less than a day. Then he told me the things I had done wrong.

ModernMech 6y ago

Luckily I got this advice early on, and I agree it’s aged well as I get older. It was given to me as “Time is your most precious resource. You can always make more money. You’ll never get back a second of your time.” Words I live by.

andreilys 6y ago

Some people have spent thousands of hours perfecting their craft. To think you can produce the same output with a few hours of YouTube tutorials is laughable. I’m happy to pay these experts because I know I will get my moneys worth. It’ll also free up my time to explore things I have a higher interest and affinity for

gerbler 6y ago
If very high-skilled work is needed and/or specialized tools (replacing a front-door, plumbing a gas-line), I agree, it's hard to match a skilled professional. In my experience, the vast majority of household diy/repair does not require that level of skill. It can also be hard to find a really skilled person that cares about your home as much as you. For me, I tend towards fixing/making everything myself unless it requires high-skill or specialized tools.
- war1025 6y ago
  > It can also be hard to find a really skilled person that cares about your home as much as you. This is something I've found to be true. We bought a house that we later found had some significant water damage issues. I hired a professional the first time we noticed it and he did little more than paper over the problem. I ended up spending the next two years basically tearing the wall apart and redoing all the sheathing and insulation and house wrap. Sure I could have hired someone and they would have eventually done all that for me, but I'm pretty confident it would have been in the tens of thousands of dollars by that point. Caring about the end result will get you a long way. But part of it is probably also that I come from a working class family and was immersed in the basics of that sort of work for my entire growing up time.
0xffff2 6y ago
How do you know you're hiring an expert? It's easy to find people claiming to be experts who are willing to take your money. It's virtually impossible to evaluate whether they're any good or not when you're not an expert either. If I do it myself, I might take three times as long, but at least I know what I'm going to get.

gerbler 6y ago

I completely agree. I've found these are generally challenging tasks that pull you into a flow state, and when doing them with family, contribute to a great sense of accomplishment.

jdhzzz 6y ago

"If you eliminate all hassle, you could just as much pay people to live instead of you." In general (90% of the time) I've found paying someone to do something merely alters the hassle. Now I have to deal through someone to get the desired result. And I'm paying for the privilege (increments hassle). There are very few times I've been able to pay money, state the desired result, and remain hands off.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Yep, it's easy to get screwed over. When we had major renovations, one knowledgeable family member always had to be around to make sure things are going well. The main repairs guy is obviously hostile to this, they are the pros after all, but if you take a hands off approach you can get screwed. And other handymen don't like taking up and finishing/fixing botched jobs. You can also try to run after your money. Sure you can delegate that too, pay a lawyer etc. If you're really rich you can just have someone who does all this for you and you just sit in your chair and enjoy life and point to things in catalogues and everything else just appears around you.

neogodless 6y ago

There are ripple effects from discovering that you're capable of doing things that professionals get paid to do. Good ripple effects. My wife has not only embraced me doing more things around the house (and to me, this is getting to do more things) as she's seen what I can do, but she's also embraced her own capabilities more as she's discovered what she can do. There's also cases where professionals have different skill levels, or just a bad day, and make mistakes working on your issue. But when you did the initial build or repair yourself, you often learn enough to come in and troubleshoot an issue that arises, without having to schedule a troubleshooting session (or five, as is the case of my brand new roof that still has a new leak after quite a few visits and failure to identify the cause.) The more capable you find yourself, the more you can readily learn to shape your immediate environment to be the world you want to live in. And arguably, there's more satisfaction in that than paying others to shape the world for you.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Also, paying someone to care about it as much as you do may be out of your wallet (well, perhaps not the case for SV devs reading). The attention to detail and actual time that you are willing to put into your own home is just different from someone for whom it's just another job.

redleggedfrog 6y ago

I wanted to say great replies - thoughtful and reasoned and polite. I read them all. Thanks HN folks.