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Some years ago I looked at developing a MacOS app and distributing it through the App Store. I came away from that experience with two showstoppers: - Apple d

Some years ago I looked at developing a MacOS app and distributing it through the App Store. I came away from that experience with two showstoppers: - Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. - There is no mechanism to make paid updates possible. If you want to release a big update and get paid you need to release a new app. There is no way to contact current users and offer them an inexpensive update. Are these two issues still true of the MacOS App Store?

jimbokun 6y ago
Do developers get around the "no updates" problem with "In App Purchases"? Or do "In App Purchases" not really allow for deploying new code and features?
- valuearb 6y ago
  You can use IAP for upgrades. it’s just a bit more work, grows your testing matrix significantly and is a bit more confusing to your customers.
- gowld 6y ago
  That's a janky workaround. You have support both the old and new features/behaviors in one app, and push an update that wraps the old and new features in code like 'if(IAP_X_ENABLED())'. Any architectural refactorings aren't compatible with that model, so you'd have to launch MyApp2019 and MyApp2020, and hope Apple lets you do that.
- cuddlybacon 6y ago
  Another work-around I've seen is updating the old app that has a one-time popup to alert users to the new version. As a user, I can live with that as long as it is a one-time popup. This is really something the store should handle.
  - duskwuff 6y ago
    Notifying users is the easy part. The hard part is offering upgrade pricing, rather than forcing users to buy the new version at full price. I think I've seen a workaround of offering the old and new versions as a bundle? That's pretty ugly, though.
killion 6y ago
Reeder did a really great job of dealing with this. I use Reeder 4 and got a one time modal on launch that Reeder 5 exists and what the potential reasons to upgrade would be.
- ebcase 6y ago
  Can confirm, Reeder is an outstanding app (for RSS feed reading), and as soon as I saw the new version notice, I promptly updated.
  - jdeibele 6y ago
    Can I ask why? I'm using Reeder 3 and the only thing that I feel like I'm missing is that more recent versions of MacOS support adding an RSS feed from the browser. So I have to cut-and-paste the URL into Reeder. I use Feedly as the source and read with NetNewsWire on my iPad. There's a NetNewsWire client for the Mac that now supports Feedly but it doesn't support vi commands for quickly paging through articles. I don't use a keyboard on my iPad so it's fine that it's different than the Mac.
valuearb 6y ago
No upgrades is a lamentable omission, but subscriptions and IAP can help replace it (not as well tho). Protecting purchasers privacy is a great customer benefit, which also helps increase developer sales. For example, App Store customers never have to worry about being spammed by some developer they bought an app from. You can still find out who is using your apps, just ask them within the app. They may not tell you, but again that’s a happy customers right.
- dylan604 6y ago
  >For example, App Store customers never have to worry about being spammed by some developer they bought an app from. If only Amazon was like this. I get inundated with emails from sellers on AMZN asking/suggesting/begging for me to review their product. This continues for months after purchase. >You can still find out who is using your apps, just ask them within the app. This is also annoying AF. "Please rate our app on the app store" right the middle of me trying to do something. If they timed it for right at launch before starting anything, maybe I'd be less irritated, but probably not. Trust me, my talking to my acquaintances carries a lot more weight than a review from some random person on the internet. I blame the review gaming system from Amazon/Yelp type of places that make reviews an no-go for me.
  - true_religion 6y ago
    The rating system is different from app registration. You can ask people for their email, name, etc. within the App itself without simultaneously begging for ratings on the app store. App registration is what people used to do in the era of shrink-wrap software, bought in brick and mortar stores.
  - bredren 6y ago
    It is possible to buy highly targeted personal data as a seller on Amazon marketplace. You buy generic of a well-sold product id and sell it at a discount. Your inventory goes to the top of the stack and sells through. You get the full name address and contact info of everyone interested. This can be combined with data broker info to assemble galaxies around these individuals who can then be remarketed to in uncountable ways. This is against the terms of service of course, but so was keeping Facebook user profile data of people who installed your apps back in the day. There’s no way to police the behavior and it’s open season. You can do this on just about any product and if you go into weird niches you can find very particular types of folks.
pier25 6y ago
The problem with the MAS is that it's very difficult to leave it. If you stop paying the Apple developer fee, maybe because you're not generating any revenue anymore or you switched to some other distribution system, users who have paid your app won't be able to download it again. The app won't be uninstalled from their machines but it will completely disappear from the MAS and the list of purchased apps. There's nothing you can do to help them because you won't be able to know which users have already bought your app. What if you wanted to help your users switch to your new distribution system, or give them a discount for the new version (distributed outside the MAS)?
- true_religion 6y ago
  I think the developer fee is something on the order of $100 per year. If you can't pay that because of low revenue, then there's no reason to go chasing/helping customers who bought via the app store since the never generated enough revenue in the first place. Now if you're just about to switch to a new distribution system, not because of revenue issues, then you maintain your developer fee and publish one last update which allows paid users to register their versions in the new system.
  - kranner 6y ago
    > there's no reason to go chasing/helping customers who bought via the app store since the never generated enough revenue in the first place How does that follow? An individual customer is not responsible for the commercial viability of the app, in order to continue to receive a service they have already paid for. In this case the service is permanent access to the last version of the app, even if the developer is no longer able to support it.
    - OldHand2018 6y ago
      I just wrote above: the customer can keep using the app as long as they keep the app. Even when they get a new computer. If an app is removed from the App Store, it’s gone from the App Store, that’s all.
macintux 6y ago
> There is no mechanism to make paid updates possible. I discovered someone had implemented a nice workaround for this. Pixelmator IIRC. They offered the old and new releases as a bundle, so anyone who had already purchased the old version could finish the bundle for a lower price.
- kergonath 6y ago
  Very clever. Still below-par UX because of Apple though.
  - macintux 6y ago
    Yeah, Apple has clearly failed on multiple fronts to make the App Store more useful. Steve Jobs, for all his failings, made for an excellent voice of the customer. He had a keen sense for what made a good consumer product, and I wonder whether Apple would benefit an executive ombudsman role like that to help inform strategic resource decisions.
layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
>Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. Maybe because it's none of your business?
- csunbird 6y ago
  There are “Know your customers” laws that require you to know identity of your customers.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    For apps, really? What happens if I bought some software in a box and just put it on my computer? I would be interested in reading about that; it seems strange and impossible to enforce.
    - csunbird 6y ago
      I do not think most apps need that, but e.g. financial companies needs to identify all their customers.
      - kergonath 6y ago
        Fair enough, but then presumably you need an account with them regardless of where you get the app from.
- ghaff 6y ago
  One can argue whether it's good or bad but, in an online (or mail order) context, companies absolutely know in general who their customers are. Which has, as I say, both positives and negatives. Mostly I think it's a positive so long as the seller doesn't abuse it.
- s3cur3 6y ago
  Yup. From my perspective, this is a feature, not a bug.
ska 6y ago
> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. This is a feature. The paid update thing is a bit of a challenge on both sides; it does seem like someone should have come up with a better way to do this.
- addicted 6y ago
  For the customers who want it, wouldn’t simply using Apple Pay resolve this?
  - armadsen 6y ago
    You're not allowed to sell digital goods, including things like feature unlocks or paid upgrades, via your own payment mechanism (which Apple Pay requires). You have to use in app purchase so Apple can take their cut, and so the transaction is between the user and Apple, not the user and you. So no, this isn't a feasible solution, unfortunately.
kergonath 6y ago
> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app As a user, I am happy when I can avoid leaving PII in a developper’s database. It might suck for those who are honest and take security seriously, but there have been just too many data breaches. Can’t argue with your other point.
Razengan 6y ago
> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. Why should they? That's sort of their whole deal lately: to prevent third-parties from snooping anything about users unless the users choose to divulge any information.
Razengan 6y ago
> There is no mechanism to make paid updates possible. Sure there is! Quite a few apps are delivered as separate numbered versions, like Acorn 4, Acorn 5, Acorn 6, Textual 7 etc. That's how software used to work a millenia ago. Yearly updates that you would buy separately should you chose to. Most of the time I can still download older versions even if they're not listed on the App Store.
Youden 6y ago
> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. What legitimate interest do you have in processing that information? Apple needs it for billing and to know who owns which apps. As you would no longer need it for those reasons, for which reasons do you need it? GDPR requires that you have a legitimate interest before collecting PII so this is an important question.
rdsnsca 6y ago
Use app bundles to update your app. Those who buy the bundle will get credit off if they own the first version of your app.

jimbokun 6y ago

Do developers get around the "no updates" problem with "In App Purchases"? Or do "In App Purchases" not really allow for deploying new code and features?

valuearb 6y ago
You can use IAP for upgrades. it’s just a bit more work, grows your testing matrix significantly and is a bit more confusing to your customers.
gowld 6y ago
That's a janky workaround. You have support both the old and new features/behaviors in one app, and push an update that wraps the old and new features in code like 'if(IAP_X_ENABLED())'. Any architectural refactorings aren't compatible with that model, so you'd have to launch MyApp2019 and MyApp2020, and hope Apple lets you do that.
cuddlybacon 6y ago
Another work-around I've seen is updating the old app that has a one-time popup to alert users to the new version. As a user, I can live with that as long as it is a one-time popup. This is really something the store should handle.
- duskwuff 6y ago
  Notifying users is the easy part. The hard part is offering upgrade pricing, rather than forcing users to buy the new version at full price. I think I've seen a workaround of offering the old and new versions as a bundle? That's pretty ugly, though.

killion 6y ago

Reeder did a really great job of dealing with this. I use Reeder 4 and got a one time modal on launch that Reeder 5 exists and what the potential reasons to upgrade would be.

ebcase 6y ago
Can confirm, Reeder is an outstanding app (for RSS feed reading), and as soon as I saw the new version notice, I promptly updated.
- jdeibele 6y ago
  Can I ask why? I'm using Reeder 3 and the only thing that I feel like I'm missing is that more recent versions of MacOS support adding an RSS feed from the browser. So I have to cut-and-paste the URL into Reeder. I use Feedly as the source and read with NetNewsWire on my iPad. There's a NetNewsWire client for the Mac that now supports Feedly but it doesn't support vi commands for quickly paging through articles. I don't use a keyboard on my iPad so it's fine that it's different than the Mac.

valuearb 6y ago

No upgrades is a lamentable omission, but subscriptions and IAP can help replace it (not as well tho). Protecting purchasers privacy is a great customer benefit, which also helps increase developer sales. For example, App Store customers never have to worry about being spammed by some developer they bought an app from. You can still find out who is using your apps, just ask them within the app. They may not tell you, but again that’s a happy customers right.

dylan604 6y ago
>For example, App Store customers never have to worry about being spammed by some developer they bought an app from. If only Amazon was like this. I get inundated with emails from sellers on AMZN asking/suggesting/begging for me to review their product. This continues for months after purchase. >You can still find out who is using your apps, just ask them within the app. This is also annoying AF. "Please rate our app on the app store" right the middle of me trying to do something. If they timed it for right at launch before starting anything, maybe I'd be less irritated, but probably not. Trust me, my talking to my acquaintances carries a lot more weight than a review from some random person on the internet. I blame the review gaming system from Amazon/Yelp type of places that make reviews an no-go for me.
- true_religion 6y ago
  The rating system is different from app registration. You can ask people for their email, name, etc. within the App itself without simultaneously begging for ratings on the app store. App registration is what people used to do in the era of shrink-wrap software, bought in brick and mortar stores.
- bredren 6y ago
  It is possible to buy highly targeted personal data as a seller on Amazon marketplace. You buy generic of a well-sold product id and sell it at a discount. Your inventory goes to the top of the stack and sells through. You get the full name address and contact info of everyone interested. This can be combined with data broker info to assemble galaxies around these individuals who can then be remarketed to in uncountable ways. This is against the terms of service of course, but so was keeping Facebook user profile data of people who installed your apps back in the day. There’s no way to police the behavior and it’s open season. You can do this on just about any product and if you go into weird niches you can find very particular types of folks.

pier25 6y ago

The problem with the MAS is that it's very difficult to leave it. If you stop paying the Apple developer fee, maybe because you're not generating any revenue anymore or you switched to some other distribution system, users who have paid your app won't be able to download it again. The app won't be uninstalled from their machines but it will completely disappear from the MAS and the list of purchased apps. There's nothing you can do to help them because you won't be able to know which users have already bought your app. What if you wanted to help your users switch to your new distribution system, or give them a discount for the new version (distributed outside the MAS)?

true_religion 6y ago
I think the developer fee is something on the order of $100 per year. If you can't pay that because of low revenue, then there's no reason to go chasing/helping customers who bought via the app store since the never generated enough revenue in the first place. Now if you're just about to switch to a new distribution system, not because of revenue issues, then you maintain your developer fee and publish one last update which allows paid users to register their versions in the new system.
- kranner 6y ago
  > there's no reason to go chasing/helping customers who bought via the app store since the never generated enough revenue in the first place How does that follow? An individual customer is not responsible for the commercial viability of the app, in order to continue to receive a service they have already paid for. In this case the service is permanent access to the last version of the app, even if the developer is no longer able to support it.
  - OldHand2018 6y ago
    I just wrote above: the customer can keep using the app as long as they keep the app. Even when they get a new computer. If an app is removed from the App Store, it’s gone from the App Store, that’s all.

macintux 6y ago

> There is no mechanism to make paid updates possible. I discovered someone had implemented a nice workaround for this. Pixelmator IIRC. They offered the old and new releases as a bundle, so anyone who had already purchased the old version could finish the bundle for a lower price.

kergonath 6y ago
Very clever. Still below-par UX because of Apple though.
- macintux 6y ago
  Yeah, Apple has clearly failed on multiple fronts to make the App Store more useful. Steve Jobs, for all his failings, made for an excellent voice of the customer. He had a keen sense for what made a good consumer product, and I wonder whether Apple would benefit an executive ombudsman role like that to help inform strategic resource decisions.

layoutIfNeeded 6y ago

>Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. Maybe because it's none of your business?

csunbird 6y ago
There are “Know your customers” laws that require you to know identity of your customers.
- kergonath 6y ago
  For apps, really? What happens if I bought some software in a box and just put it on my computer? I would be interested in reading about that; it seems strange and impossible to enforce.
  - csunbird 6y ago
    I do not think most apps need that, but e.g. financial companies needs to identify all their customers.
    - kergonath 6y ago
      Fair enough, but then presumably you need an account with them regardless of where you get the app from.
ghaff 6y ago
One can argue whether it's good or bad but, in an online (or mail order) context, companies absolutely know in general who their customers are. Which has, as I say, both positives and negatives. Mostly I think it's a positive so long as the seller doesn't abuse it.
s3cur3 6y ago
Yup. From my perspective, this is a feature, not a bug.

ska 6y ago

> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. This is a feature. The paid update thing is a bit of a challenge on both sides; it does seem like someone should have come up with a better way to do this.

addicted 6y ago
For the customers who want it, wouldn’t simply using Apple Pay resolve this?
- armadsen 6y ago
  You're not allowed to sell digital goods, including things like feature unlocks or paid upgrades, via your own payment mechanism (which Apple Pay requires). You have to use in app purchase so Apple can take their cut, and so the transaction is between the user and Apple, not the user and you. So no, this isn't a feasible solution, unfortunately.

kergonath 6y ago

> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app As a user, I am happy when I can avoid leaving PII in a developper’s database. It might suck for those who are honest and take security seriously, but there have been just too many data breaches. Can’t argue with your other point.

Razengan 6y ago

> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. Why should they? That's sort of their whole deal lately: to prevent third-parties from snooping anything about users unless the users choose to divulge any information.

Razengan 6y ago

> There is no mechanism to make paid updates possible. Sure there is! Quite a few apps are delivered as separate numbered versions, like Acorn 4, Acorn 5, Acorn 6, Textual 7 etc. That's how software used to work a millenia ago. Yearly updates that you would buy separately should you chose to. Most of the time I can still download older versions even if they're not listed on the App Store.

Youden 6y ago

> Apple does not disclose to you who bought your app. What legitimate interest do you have in processing that information? Apple needs it for billing and to know who owns which apps. As you would no longer need it for those reasons, for which reasons do you need it? GDPR requires that you have a legitimate interest before collecting PII so this is an important question.

rdsnsca 6y ago

Use app bundles to update your app. Those who buy the bundle will get credit off if they own the first version of your app.