4 ms·

As someone who grew up lower-middle income and had nothing given to me to start, I disagree entirely and quite frankly believe your attitude to be poison to tho

As someone who grew up lower-middle income and had nothing given to me to start, I disagree entirely and quite frankly believe your attitude to be poison to those who might otherwise be able to improve their station. My father passed away when I was 12 and my mother did little-to-nothing to teach me after, and while I've been blessed with problem-solving skills and a good foundation of ethics from my father, none of that would matter without hard work, including self-reflection and learning on what I need to improve. I think it's safe to say I had a rough start, and it's hard for me to see my peers get handed things by their well-off parents, but jealousy didn't allow me to buy a house or move up in my career. Sure, I'm no founder, nor am I by any means wealthy, but I am grateful for what I have, given I had nothing before. For those who find themselves in a similar situation, I highly recommend the book "The Richest Man in Babylon"; for me, the most important lessons were 1) humility, 2) save money for yourself and make it earn you money, and 3) seek to improve your earning potential. I know it's easy to be upset others are given what you need to earn, but frustration won't help you retire or achieve your goals.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mobattah 6y ago
I think you can have your experience while understanding the massive disparity. I am the same as you. Purely self-made. Handed nothing. Here's a situation I saw which changed my view from yours to the person you're replying to: My friend is successful. He did not go to college since he couldn't afford it. Rather he worked after graduating high school and attained a senior engineering role before his peers had graduated college. Well...the company he was working for folded. He desperately took whatever the next job was because he was young and did not have much savings to fall back on nor a college degree. That next job was across the country and in his words "was a waste of two years". He stayed at that dead end job for resume purposes in a city he hated but had to relocate to. Now I have another friend. That friend graduated college, moved to a new city. His parents paid for the first year of rent in the new city while he looked for the best possible job in software. He got a great job. You see the massive disparity? The first guy essentially threw away two years of his youth working a cubicle farm job because he did not have inherited wealth to fall back on. Today, he's doing very well but that does not change what happened to him. Seeing that first hand changed my "boot straps" thinking. The world isn't fair although I agree, you can make it more fair.
- castlecrasher2 6y ago
  Certainly true. My main point is I have friends like your latter example, and the time I spent frustrated they had what I didn't left me further behind financially and emotionally. Changing my attitude to "what do I need to do to get what I want" and working towards my goals has left me happier and better off.
  - mobattah 6y ago
    Yep, we agree!
- username90 6y ago
  The first guy worked as an engineer long enough to get a senior role but didn't have any savings? 100% avoidable problem. It isn't like the second guy would get senior engineer pay for the whole year from his parents, and if the first guy lived cheaply like a student he would have more than enough to survive a year or more.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    The point is that you don't have to "avoid the problem" if you are rich. You'll do better despite your failures. Meanwhile when someone is poor they are expected to have zero failures in judgment and the poor generally have better judgment but when they do have a lapse the effects are catastrophical.
    - mobattah 6y ago
      >Meanwhile when someone is poor they are expected to have zero failures in judgment and the poor generally have better judgment but when they do have a lapse the effects are catastrophic You are 100% right. And to respond to the other commenter -- the first guy didn't have much in savings because he was sending money back to his parents. That's how bad it is. When you are born into wealth, there's a sort of "rubber band" helping you move up the ladder. When you are born into poverty, that rubber band pulls you down instead of propelling you up. I can speak to this myself, I have helped my parents/family enormously at cost to my financial wellbeing. And by the way....when a son/daughter does well, gets into software, makes a healthy $150k salary in SV, that does not change the financials at home. That $150k salary has to keep coming and you have to keep giving it to your family to make a real difference over time. At the same time, you have to pay SV rent, you have to buy a car, go on dates with your significant other, have a life of your own, etc.
sinenomine 6y ago
Let me disagree politely from a similar background, though from another side of the globe. I rarely write on HN, but I think this is important for others who may read it. As someone who grew up lower-middle class, who read HN for ~10 years and became slightly-upper-middle class, I think working hard is an unattractive proposition, and becomes ever less so as the timer ticks. I have seen people burn out like candles, to no avail. My advice continues to be: "Do not ever work hard, unless you find yourself in a good strategic position where working hard benefits you". I cannot say that such positions of strategic advantage are non-existent for a normal software developer, but these became rare. Other HNers note, and I agree with them, that for someone to be raised in hierarchy for hard work is a rare occasion, especially if we talk about a real raise (say, above senior developer or a team lead). It takes a rare company and a departing higher-up to make working hard ROI > 0. To expand on it: * Realistically, the era of PG essays' applicability and easy startups is over, and has been over for several years. We are entering a new socio-economic regime which could be called "new guilded age/neo-feudalism". I may sound leftist saying this, but bear with me, I'm actually not leftist at all, it's just the truth of our situation. Lords became lords, the rest remain the rest. * In this regime the low-hanging fruit is all but taken, the value has been captured, and the tech economy enters maturity, which is a polite euphemism for "MBA phase" of value extraction. It's not just me decrying this, Elon Musk has recently said the same: https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-decries-m-b-a-ization-of-america-11607548589 https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-decries-m-b-a-ization... . Expect disappearance of small businesses (so, don't invest in tech skills used by small businesses). Expect more rat racing at work, more subscriptions and dark patterns in digital products. Also maybe expect slow merge of BigTech and US government in the next couple of decades, effectively giving us a BigTechGov with all that entails. How does a generic middle class software developer rationally cope with the reality of this brave new world ? Here is my version of it, if someone knows how to enhance this advice, please do so in the comments: 1) Work as little as possible, to earn as much money as possible (basically minmax the professional game, choose high-paying moderate barrier to entry programming niches). Take breaks, fly to pretty islands with sunny beaches as much as you can. Never bear with bad workplaces if you have opportunity to switch, you have no obligations to this system, the age of corporate IBM pensions is over. For top management we are but replaceable parts, and our loyalty is neither required nor expected. 2) If you have what it takes (intelligence and neuroplasticity, basically), leetcode for FAANG while doing 1. This allows you to reach endgame - early retirement - more quickly. 3) If you do not have what it takes, do not leetcode or study algorithms (it's a waste of time without applicability to faang), go for tier-2/3 silicon valley unicorns. If you can, get a raise, become a manager as quickly as you can, because programmers have a short shelf life, while managers have much simpler day to day responsibilities, and long shelf life. I know what I'm talking about, because I have been a manager. Basically, working your life away in a position of individual contributor is a sad fate I wish everyone avoided. 4) Live frugally, do not overspend. Invest as much money as possible in a mix of index funds, bitcoin, gold, property. Again, do not "invest" money buying tech products and various products sold to you by MBAs - these money will be wasted. 5) Slow down your ageing as much as you can - take metformin if you tolerate it, use whatever interventions necessary to avoid metabolic syndrome, monitor your biomarkers, do aerobic exercise once in two days (I prefer biking for example). Monitor your spine health, avoid deterioration with any means necessary. With serious approach it is possible to feel/look 10 years younger than you are. 6) Find a loving partner, make at least three children. Children are good for everyone, and for you in your 50s-60s. Don't bother with college education for your children, you either won't be able to afford it, or it will be free by that time. The best gifts you can give your children are high IQ and good health, both of these are highly heritable (though could be ruined by environment), so look for these in your partner as well. If you have questions regarding IQ and how not to ruin it, mail me. 7) Retire as early as possible, focus on low-capital-expense high-satisfaction activities, e.g. spending time with your kids, studying abstract subjects, sports. 8) THE END.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mobattah 6y ago

I think you can have your experience while understanding the massive disparity. I am the same as you. Purely self-made. Handed nothing. Here's a situation I saw which changed my view from yours to the person you're replying to: My friend is successful. He did not go to college since he couldn't afford it. Rather he worked after graduating high school and attained a senior engineering role before his peers had graduated college. Well...the company he was working for folded. He desperately took whatever the next job was because he was young and did not have much savings to fall back on nor a college degree. That next job was across the country and in his words "was a waste of two years". He stayed at that dead end job for resume purposes in a city he hated but had to relocate to. Now I have another friend. That friend graduated college, moved to a new city. His parents paid for the first year of rent in the new city while he looked for the best possible job in software. He got a great job. You see the massive disparity? The first guy essentially threw away two years of his youth working a cubicle farm job because he did not have inherited wealth to fall back on. Today, he's doing very well but that does not change what happened to him. Seeing that first hand changed my "boot straps" thinking. The world isn't fair although I agree, you can make it more fair.

castlecrasher2 6y ago
Certainly true. My main point is I have friends like your latter example, and the time I spent frustrated they had what I didn't left me further behind financially and emotionally. Changing my attitude to "what do I need to do to get what I want" and working towards my goals has left me happier and better off.
- mobattah 6y ago
  Yep, we agree!
username90 6y ago
The first guy worked as an engineer long enough to get a senior role but didn't have any savings? 100% avoidable problem. It isn't like the second guy would get senior engineer pay for the whole year from his parents, and if the first guy lived cheaply like a student he would have more than enough to survive a year or more.
- imtringued 6y ago
  The point is that you don't have to "avoid the problem" if you are rich. You'll do better despite your failures. Meanwhile when someone is poor they are expected to have zero failures in judgment and the poor generally have better judgment but when they do have a lapse the effects are catastrophical.
  - mobattah 6y ago
    >Meanwhile when someone is poor they are expected to have zero failures in judgment and the poor generally have better judgment but when they do have a lapse the effects are catastrophic You are 100% right. And to respond to the other commenter -- the first guy didn't have much in savings because he was sending money back to his parents. That's how bad it is. When you are born into wealth, there's a sort of "rubber band" helping you move up the ladder. When you are born into poverty, that rubber band pulls you down instead of propelling you up. I can speak to this myself, I have helped my parents/family enormously at cost to my financial wellbeing. And by the way....when a son/daughter does well, gets into software, makes a healthy $150k salary in SV, that does not change the financials at home. That $150k salary has to keep coming and you have to keep giving it to your family to make a real difference over time. At the same time, you have to pay SV rent, you have to buy a car, go on dates with your significant other, have a life of your own, etc.

sinenomine 6y ago

Let me disagree politely from a similar background, though from another side of the globe. I rarely write on HN, but I think this is important for others who may read it. As someone who grew up lower-middle class, who read HN for ~10 years and became slightly-upper-middle class, I think working hard is an unattractive proposition, and becomes ever less so as the timer ticks. I have seen people burn out like candles, to no avail. My advice continues to be: "Do not ever work hard, unless you find yourself in a good strategic position where working hard benefits you". I cannot say that such positions of strategic advantage are non-existent for a normal software developer, but these became rare. Other HNers note, and I agree with them, that for someone to be raised in hierarchy for hard work is a rare occasion, especially if we talk about a real raise (say, above senior developer or a team lead). It takes a rare company and a departing higher-up to make working hard ROI > 0. To expand on it: * Realistically, the era of PG essays' applicability and easy startups is over, and has been over for several years. We are entering a new socio-economic regime which could be called "new guilded age/neo-feudalism". I may sound leftist saying this, but bear with me, I'm actually not leftist at all, it's just the truth of our situation. Lords became lords, the rest remain the rest. * In this regime the low-hanging fruit is all but taken, the value has been captured, and the tech economy enters maturity, which is a polite euphemism for "MBA phase" of value extraction. It's not just me decrying this, Elon Musk has recently said the same: https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-decries-m-b-a-ization-of-america-11607548589 https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-decries-m-b-a-ization... . Expect disappearance of small businesses (so, don't invest in tech skills used by small businesses). Expect more rat racing at work, more subscriptions and dark patterns in digital products. Also maybe expect slow merge of BigTech and US government in the next couple of decades, effectively giving us a BigTechGov with all that entails. How does a generic middle class software developer rationally cope with the reality of this brave new world ? Here is my version of it, if someone knows how to enhance this advice, please do so in the comments: 1) Work as little as possible, to earn as much money as possible (basically minmax the professional game, choose high-paying moderate barrier to entry programming niches). Take breaks, fly to pretty islands with sunny beaches as much as you can. Never bear with bad workplaces if you have opportunity to switch, you have no obligations to this system, the age of corporate IBM pensions is over. For top management we are but replaceable parts, and our loyalty is neither required nor expected. 2) If you have what it takes (intelligence and neuroplasticity, basically), leetcode for FAANG while doing 1. This allows you to reach endgame - early retirement - more quickly. 3) If you do not have what it takes, do not leetcode or study algorithms (it's a waste of time without applicability to faang), go for tier-2/3 silicon valley unicorns. If you can, get a raise, become a manager as quickly as you can, because programmers have a short shelf life, while managers have much simpler day to day responsibilities, and long shelf life. I know what I'm talking about, because I have been a manager. Basically, working your life away in a position of individual contributor is a sad fate I wish everyone avoided. 4) Live frugally, do not overspend. Invest as much money as possible in a mix of index funds, bitcoin, gold, property. Again, do not "invest" money buying tech products and various products sold to you by MBAs - these money will be wasted. 5) Slow down your ageing as much as you can - take metformin if you tolerate it, use whatever interventions necessary to avoid metabolic syndrome, monitor your biomarkers, do aerobic exercise once in two days (I prefer biking for example). Monitor your spine health, avoid deterioration with any means necessary. With serious approach it is possible to feel/look 10 years younger than you are. 6) Find a loving partner, make at least three children. Children are good for everyone, and for you in your 50s-60s. Don't bother with college education for your children, you either won't be able to afford it, or it will be free by that time. The best gifts you can give your children are high IQ and good health, both of these are highly heritable (though could be ruined by environment), so look for these in your partner as well. If you have questions regarding IQ and how not to ruin it, mail me. 7) Retire as early as possible, focus on low-capital-expense high-satisfaction activities, e.g. spending time with your kids, studying abstract subjects, sports. 8) THE END.