4 ms·

I'm going to disagree with ARM here: it's not quite yet time to get excited about Windows on ARM. The app support just isn't there yet, and the emulation is not

I'm going to disagree with ARM here: it's not quite yet time to get excited about Windows on ARM. The app support just isn't there yet, and the emulation is not nearly as good as the emulation on macOS. I've been tracking major app and development platform updates [1], and while there is forward momentum, all the pieces aren't quite there for many apps to offer ARM versions. Many Windows apps use Windows Presentation Framework, and ARM support isn't available yet (currently scheduled for the first half of next year). Apps like 1Password and Affinity Photo are waiting for that update to enable them to offer ARM versions. Hopefully by the end of next year developers will have no excuse not to offer ARM versions. [1] https://iswindowsonarmready.netlify.app/ https://iswindowsonarmready.netlify.app/

theonemind 6y ago
It's kind of sad that Apple will just pull the emulation in a year or two, so it's kind of beside the point how good it is. They offer it just long enough to induce people across the gap, not long enough to provide meaningful support for older software. They don't really do it for the users' benefit, per se. If it makes it into Windows, it'll probably stick around for a decade.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  I really hope Rosetta 2 lasts longer than Rosetta 1. Rosetta 1 was licensed tech that Apple presumably didn’t want to keep paying the license fee for, particularly when they were less wealthy than they are today. Furthermore, Rosetta 1’s performance was too poor to provide a truly good user experience, whereas Rosetta 2 performs really well. And, there’s just a larger library of Intel Mac apps than there ever were PPC apps, because of how the platform has grown.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    Apple most definitely won’t keep Rosetta 2 around forever because they want developers to release native apps. Apple doesn’t care if you can’t run an app that was last updated in 2010.
    - macintux 6y ago
      Rosetta 1 lasted 5 years as far as I can tell; there’s a huge gap between 5 years and forever.
      - zapzupnz 6y ago
        Rosetta was first publicly available with Mac OS X "Tiger" 10.4.4, released in on January 10, 2006; the initial release of "Tiger", 10.4, was released nearly a year prior on April 29, 2005. Mac OS X "Leopard" 10.5.8 was the last version of Mac OS X that supported booting on PowerPC-based Macs, released August 5, 2009. Apple's final update for the operating system was released in June 2011. An update for Safari and iTunes was released in 2012. Mac OS X "Snow Leopard" 10.6.8 was the last supported version that contained Rosetta, released August 28, 2009. It became unsupported in late 2014, though it received an update in 2016. For all intents and purposes, let's end support in September 2014 with the final iTunes update. So from 2006 to 2014, roughly eight years of official Apple support for versions of Mac OS X containing PowerPC-support. Eight years across three versions. This was before the era of major releases being made available for free every year. If Rosetta 1 was anything to go by, and given that the Rosetta 2 technology is Apple-built, not licenced, we should see Intel support for quite some time — it depends on how quickly software is ported to Apple Silicon, iOS apps are ported to AppKit or Catalyst, and high-speed emulation of an Intel-based release of macOS becomes viable. We may see Intel releases of macOS for a while longer than with the previous transition, given that the most popular Macs are MacBooks, and they run on latest gen Intel processors; compare that to the iBook and PowerBook, stuck on the G4 for years after the G5 came out. But either way, 8 years is nothing to sniff at. :-) Edit: mistook 10.5.8 as the latest Rosetta-supported Mac OS X release; it was actually 10.6.8.
        Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > Mac OS X "Leopard" 10.5.8 contained the last supported version of Rosetta, released August 5, 2009. Nope. Snow Leopard supports Rosetta, just not real PPC hardware (although even that appears to have been pulled at the last minute—PPC support is present in the kernels of developer previews, and people have successfully gotten retail versions to work.) Anyway, the point of my post was I hope Rosetta 2 lasts longer, for the reasons I detailed.
raverbashing 6y ago
Those who wait until it gets "good enough" for them might miss the wave Though yes, if WPF is not working (not sure why) then it's harder to make the case for it
- mwcampbell 6y ago
  > Those who wait until it gets "good enough" for them might miss the wave What do you mean? Are you saying that application developers should go out of their way to make their apps available for Windows on ARM? Do you think they'll miss out on users if they don't?
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    Yes (of course, it really depends on how much of "out if their way" is needed and the relevance of the platform to the developer) and yes If your app runs fine on emulation, then it's ok. But you probably don't want to get caught with an underperforming app while your competition is already native

theonemind 6y ago

It's kind of sad that Apple will just pull the emulation in a year or two, so it's kind of beside the point how good it is. They offer it just long enough to induce people across the gap, not long enough to provide meaningful support for older software. They don't really do it for the users' benefit, per se. If it makes it into Windows, it'll probably stick around for a decade.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
I really hope Rosetta 2 lasts longer than Rosetta 1. Rosetta 1 was licensed tech that Apple presumably didn’t want to keep paying the license fee for, particularly when they were less wealthy than they are today. Furthermore, Rosetta 1’s performance was too poor to provide a truly good user experience, whereas Rosetta 2 performs really well. And, there’s just a larger library of Intel Mac apps than there ever were PPC apps, because of how the platform has grown.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Apple most definitely won’t keep Rosetta 2 around forever because they want developers to release native apps. Apple doesn’t care if you can’t run an app that was last updated in 2010.
  - macintux 6y ago
    Rosetta 1 lasted 5 years as far as I can tell; there’s a huge gap between 5 years and forever.
    - zapzupnz 6y ago
      Rosetta was first publicly available with Mac OS X "Tiger" 10.4.4, released in on January 10, 2006; the initial release of "Tiger", 10.4, was released nearly a year prior on April 29, 2005. Mac OS X "Leopard" 10.5.8 was the last version of Mac OS X that supported booting on PowerPC-based Macs, released August 5, 2009. Apple's final update for the operating system was released in June 2011. An update for Safari and iTunes was released in 2012. Mac OS X "Snow Leopard" 10.6.8 was the last supported version that contained Rosetta, released August 28, 2009. It became unsupported in late 2014, though it received an update in 2016. For all intents and purposes, let's end support in September 2014 with the final iTunes update. So from 2006 to 2014, roughly eight years of official Apple support for versions of Mac OS X containing PowerPC-support. Eight years across three versions. This was before the era of major releases being made available for free every year. If Rosetta 1 was anything to go by, and given that the Rosetta 2 technology is Apple-built, not licenced, we should see Intel support for quite some time — it depends on how quickly software is ported to Apple Silicon, iOS apps are ported to AppKit or Catalyst, and high-speed emulation of an Intel-based release of macOS becomes viable. We may see Intel releases of macOS for a while longer than with the previous transition, given that the most popular Macs are MacBooks, and they run on latest gen Intel processors; compare that to the iBook and PowerBook, stuck on the G4 for years after the G5 came out. But either way, 8 years is nothing to sniff at. :-) Edit: mistook 10.5.8 as the latest Rosetta-supported Mac OS X release; it was actually 10.6.8.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        > Mac OS X "Leopard" 10.5.8 contained the last supported version of Rosetta, released August 5, 2009. Nope. Snow Leopard supports Rosetta, just not real PPC hardware (although even that appears to have been pulled at the last minute—PPC support is present in the kernels of developer previews, and people have successfully gotten retail versions to work.) Anyway, the point of my post was I hope Rosetta 2 lasts longer, for the reasons I detailed.

raverbashing 6y ago

Those who wait until it gets "good enough" for them might miss the wave Though yes, if WPF is not working (not sure why) then it's harder to make the case for it

mwcampbell 6y ago
> Those who wait until it gets "good enough" for them might miss the wave What do you mean? Are you saying that application developers should go out of their way to make their apps available for Windows on ARM? Do you think they'll miss out on users if they don't?
- raverbashing 6y ago
  Yes (of course, it really depends on how much of "out if their way" is needed and the relevance of the platform to the developer) and yes If your app runs fine on emulation, then it's ok. But you probably don't want to get caught with an underperforming app while your competition is already native