4 ms·

That's like respecting the local lord for letting the peasants keep slightly more grain this winter

by Bakary 6y ago

marcosdumay 6y ago
Well, guess what, feudal societies got organized that way in middle ages for a reason, and lords not exploiting their peasants was praiseworthy (despite being the most common way). Once we could organize ourselves in highly productive democratic nation-states, then yes, just being a lord became shameful, but it wasn't an option at the time.
- Bakary 6y ago
  The first step to reform is to not be so alienated that you praise those who profit the most from the status quo for throwing the occasional breadcrumb. Organizing democratic nation-states first came from people questioning the divine rights of kings. In our era, this would be questioning the divine right of "value creators" and the trickling down.
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    Hum... Organizing democratic nation-states first came by creating nation-states, what could only be done (and was only done) by the king or people supported by him. Only after that people started thinking about democratizing anything.
    - Bakary 6y ago
      I still don't understand the underlying argument to be honest.
      - marcosdumay 6y ago
        You are just claiming work relations are exploitative, without any care for how they fit in society or the complete lack of any better alternative. That's a bad, naive argument that doesn't help improving anything or calling people's attention to anything they could improve. And you are doing that by comparing to equally naive analysis of other times.
        Bakary 6y ago
        The OP considered that giving extra time off was praiseworthy. I countered that perception by pointing out that it is a very minor gift given by someone in a position of much larger power than the employee. I felt compelled to make this comment as I perceived this praise to be an inaccurate perception of the actual relationship between worker and employer. I'm calling attention to that as a form of thinking that can harm the employee but than can be improved. Working for an employer may be necessary, but adapting your thinking to praise the employer and their power is often not and needlessly decreases some of your freedom or power to get a better position. Take for example workers who feel guilt at leaving an employer, whereas the employer might discard them without any second thoughts if needed. I compared it to feudalism for illustrative effect, but I believe the comparison also has merit in itself as de facto feudal power was further bolstered by cultural constructs that further limited the scope of analysis in favor of the status quo. We operate under similar constructs with hustle porn, by-your-bootstraps, CEO worship and so on. Of course, this is a matter of subjective and cultural perception but I wouldn't call it naive. Nowhere did I propose a complete framework to radically improve all of society, nor was it necessary to do so for the scope of my argument which merely cautioned against needlessly submissive (and naive!) ways of looking at employment that add burdens way beyond what physical reality or the organization of society bestows.
xyzelement 6y ago
That's a really weird way to look at it. I guess if you look at your work as something being forced onto you against your will, yeah. But many people are fortunate enough to select what they want to do and with whom (the company) and their relationship is not at all how you described.
- Bakary 6y ago
  Well we indeed are speaking from coexisting realities. Neither is weirder than the other. It's tautologically the case that if you have good working conditions you relationship will be different. That said, if you still have to work for a living and not for your own capital, it's still the case that much of your life blood goes into making someone else wealthier independently of whether or not you enjoy the work. Therefore, it's still necessary to some extent to keep the power relation in mind, even though it can be less obvious in good working conditions and even if you do receive capital in addition to your salary. For me HN is an invaluable resource since it has allowed me to take a peek into some realities that were hitherto unimaginable. This sort of reality clash will only become more poignant in the future as the gap between highly skilled workers and the rest deepens to become a canyon. It's already the case that you find my perspective weird, so imagine how weird it will be to future HN posters when the inequality has reached even higher levels and they can't even conceive of someone having to apply for jobs to get one.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    > For me HN is an invaluable resource since it has allowed me to take a peek into some realities that were hitherto unimaginable. Just wanted to say - that's awesome. > This sort of reality clash will only become more poignant in the future as the gap between highly skilled workers and the rest deepens to become a canyon. It's already the case that you find my perspective weird, so imagine how weird it will be to future HN posters when the inequality has reached even higher levels and they can't even conceive of someone having to apply for jobs to get one. I think the chasm is not as wide as you think - at least for me. It's easy for me to relate to the difficulty of a job search, and at least intellectually to connect to the difficulty of scraping by in a low skill/low wage situation. I grew up poor so it's not that hard to see it actually. The reason I reacted to your post is that the attitude it espouses is poison to those who embrace it. Here's what I mean - if one believes that all employers are abusers out there to fleece you like a feudal lord (from your analogy) then one doesn't actually try to find working dynamics that are better than that so they pass up opportunities. Small example - my in-laws run a small business that treats employees very well (like, health insurance for unskilled workers type well) - but if someone believes all employers are evil then folks don't go and seek out their type.
mrmonkeyman 6y ago
You entered into contract voluntarily, don't BS your way out of that. You are not a serf on the fields of Dutch Indonesia. If the employer gives you one millimetre more than is required, that is praiseworthy. Just like in the reverse case.

That's like respecting the local lord for letting the peasants keep slightly more grain this winter

by Bakary 6y ago

That's like respecting the local lord for letting the peasants keep slightly more grain this winter

Well, guess what, feudal societies got organized that way in middle ages for a reason, and lords not exploiting their peasants was praiseworthy (despite being the most common way). Once we could organize ourselves in highly productive democratic nation-states, then yes, just being a lord became shameful, but it wasn't an option at the time.

Bakary 6y ago
The first step to reform is to not be so alienated that you praise those who profit the most from the status quo for throwing the occasional breadcrumb. Organizing democratic nation-states first came from people questioning the divine rights of kings. In our era, this would be questioning the divine right of "value creators" and the trickling down.
- marcosdumay 6y ago
  Hum... Organizing democratic nation-states first came by creating nation-states, what could only be done (and was only done) by the king or people supported by him. Only after that people started thinking about democratizing anything.
  - Bakary 6y ago
    I still don't understand the underlying argument to be honest.
    - marcosdumay 6y ago
      You are just claiming work relations are exploitative, without any care for how they fit in society or the complete lack of any better alternative. That's a bad, naive argument that doesn't help improving anything or calling people's attention to anything they could improve. And you are doing that by comparing to equally naive analysis of other times.
      - Bakary 6y ago
        The OP considered that giving extra time off was praiseworthy. I countered that perception by pointing out that it is a very minor gift given by someone in a position of much larger power than the employee. I felt compelled to make this comment as I perceived this praise to be an inaccurate perception of the actual relationship between worker and employer. I'm calling attention to that as a form of thinking that can harm the employee but than can be improved. Working for an employer may be necessary, but adapting your thinking to praise the employer and their power is often not and needlessly decreases some of your freedom or power to get a better position. Take for example workers who feel guilt at leaving an employer, whereas the employer might discard them without any second thoughts if needed. I compared it to feudalism for illustrative effect, but I believe the comparison also has merit in itself as de facto feudal power was further bolstered by cultural constructs that further limited the scope of analysis in favor of the status quo. We operate under similar constructs with hustle porn, by-your-bootstraps, CEO worship and so on. Of course, this is a matter of subjective and cultural perception but I wouldn't call it naive. Nowhere did I propose a complete framework to radically improve all of society, nor was it necessary to do so for the scope of my argument which merely cautioned against needlessly submissive (and naive!) ways of looking at employment that add burdens way beyond what physical reality or the organization of society bestows.

xyzelement 6y ago

That's a really weird way to look at it. I guess if you look at your work as something being forced onto you against your will, yeah. But many people are fortunate enough to select what they want to do and with whom (the company) and their relationship is not at all how you described.

Bakary 6y ago
Well we indeed are speaking from coexisting realities. Neither is weirder than the other. It's tautologically the case that if you have good working conditions you relationship will be different. That said, if you still have to work for a living and not for your own capital, it's still the case that much of your life blood goes into making someone else wealthier independently of whether or not you enjoy the work. Therefore, it's still necessary to some extent to keep the power relation in mind, even though it can be less obvious in good working conditions and even if you do receive capital in addition to your salary. For me HN is an invaluable resource since it has allowed me to take a peek into some realities that were hitherto unimaginable. This sort of reality clash will only become more poignant in the future as the gap between highly skilled workers and the rest deepens to become a canyon. It's already the case that you find my perspective weird, so imagine how weird it will be to future HN posters when the inequality has reached even higher levels and they can't even conceive of someone having to apply for jobs to get one.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  > For me HN is an invaluable resource since it has allowed me to take a peek into some realities that were hitherto unimaginable. Just wanted to say - that's awesome. > This sort of reality clash will only become more poignant in the future as the gap between highly skilled workers and the rest deepens to become a canyon. It's already the case that you find my perspective weird, so imagine how weird it will be to future HN posters when the inequality has reached even higher levels and they can't even conceive of someone having to apply for jobs to get one. I think the chasm is not as wide as you think - at least for me. It's easy for me to relate to the difficulty of a job search, and at least intellectually to connect to the difficulty of scraping by in a low skill/low wage situation. I grew up poor so it's not that hard to see it actually. The reason I reacted to your post is that the attitude it espouses is poison to those who embrace it. Here's what I mean - if one believes that all employers are abusers out there to fleece you like a feudal lord (from your analogy) then one doesn't actually try to find working dynamics that are better than that so they pass up opportunities. Small example - my in-laws run a small business that treats employees very well (like, health insurance for unskilled workers type well) - but if someone believes all employers are evil then folks don't go and seek out their type.

mrmonkeyman 6y ago

You entered into contract voluntarily, don't BS your way out of that. You are not a serf on the fields of Dutch Indonesia. If the employer gives you one millimetre more than is required, that is praiseworthy. Just like in the reverse case.