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I've been through the Canadian equivalent of West Point and have done a week exchange at West Point. You're totally right about the experiment in human nature.

I've been through the Canadian equivalent of West Point and have done a week exchange at West Point. You're totally right about the experiment in human nature. Depending on which degree you were working on, there was often just way too much to do with the time given. The "academic wing" wouldn't coordinate with the "military wing" and we'd end up having a slew of inspections alongside midterms. I remember getting caught skipping out on military training on a Saturday (which was just a day of lectures, easy to slip out after attendance) to catch up on homework. At the same time, an officer went through the dorms to ensure nobody was skipping. I was caught in my room and spent the next two weeks having to wear an uncomfortable uniform all day and reporting to do drill every morning. Obviously, choosing to cheat academically is way worse than skipping a Saturday of lectures, but if the system is designed to break you, it shouldn't be impossible to recover from.

dak1 6y ago
It's almost expected you don't have enough time. When I was at West Point they'd explicitly state that. Additionally, there was a hard lights off policy at midnight to ensure cadets got enough sleep, yet people invariably would be up with a flashlight underneath their covers trying to get work done until 2am. Plebes in particular got less time as well, as they'd be subject to additional tasks/hazing until a given time when they couldn't be disturbed (I believe 7pm).
dr_orpheus 6y ago
I had a similar thought when I saw this that there may just be way too much to be working on. The two instances of widespread cheating that I have seen going through school were the results of: 1. There was absolutely way too much to do. Classes within a major did not coordinate large projects/tests and students tried to find a way to cope. 2. The teacher was so terrible that they felt vastly underprepared for an upcoming test.
nradov 6y ago
Giving students more work than they can reasonably accomplish is a good object lesson in ruthless prioritization and time management. In the real world you have to decide which tasks to do well and which to half-ass or just drop entirely. I didn't attend a military academy, but did go to an academically demanding college (with an honor code). Some of my fellow students were ridiculous in that they didn't know when to quit and tried to do all assignments perfectly even at the expense of having a social life or getting some exercise.
- silexia 6y ago
  Devil's Advocate - to carry the parent's analogy of ruthless lessons being taught to the grandparent's comment on don't get caught, Sun Tzu clammed that most military success is due to surprising the enemy with deception and tricks. It seems like it would be good to have a very strict honor code but also require impossible tasks to be done, thus forcing cadets to learn to be deceptive in the most effective way possible.
- powersnail 6y ago
  To be fair, I found social life in college boring. I wouldn’t be surprised if some students like assignments better than parties. Exercise shouldn’t be skipped, though.
  - nradov 6y ago
    I enjoyed the parties, but most colleges have a lot of other social opportunities. I was in a theater group, sailing club, fragged my friends in online video games, etc.
- m463 6y ago
  I remember listening to a Joe Rogan episode where he said that top fighters had a problem - if they kept trying to prepare they would overtrain and set themselves back. I can see how figuring out the difference between enough and too much is hard especially when your need to excel and maybe your identity is tied up in everything.
chrisseaton 6y ago
I don't know why the military academies in the US and Canada combine military and education at the same time. In the UK you focus on one at a time - education in a conventional civilian university like anyone else, and then military in a military academy afterwards. Why do you need the military to provide the education part? Seems like not their core competency.

dak1 6y ago

It's almost expected you don't have enough time. When I was at West Point they'd explicitly state that. Additionally, there was a hard lights off policy at midnight to ensure cadets got enough sleep, yet people invariably would be up with a flashlight underneath their covers trying to get work done until 2am. Plebes in particular got less time as well, as they'd be subject to additional tasks/hazing until a given time when they couldn't be disturbed (I believe 7pm).

dr_orpheus 6y ago

I had a similar thought when I saw this that there may just be way too much to be working on. The two instances of widespread cheating that I have seen going through school were the results of: 1. There was absolutely way too much to do. Classes within a major did not coordinate large projects/tests and students tried to find a way to cope. 2. The teacher was so terrible that they felt vastly underprepared for an upcoming test.

nradov 6y ago

Giving students more work than they can reasonably accomplish is a good object lesson in ruthless prioritization and time management. In the real world you have to decide which tasks to do well and which to half-ass or just drop entirely. I didn't attend a military academy, but did go to an academically demanding college (with an honor code). Some of my fellow students were ridiculous in that they didn't know when to quit and tried to do all assignments perfectly even at the expense of having a social life or getting some exercise.

silexia 6y ago
Devil's Advocate - to carry the parent's analogy of ruthless lessons being taught to the grandparent's comment on don't get caught, Sun Tzu clammed that most military success is due to surprising the enemy with deception and tricks. It seems like it would be good to have a very strict honor code but also require impossible tasks to be done, thus forcing cadets to learn to be deceptive in the most effective way possible.
powersnail 6y ago
To be fair, I found social life in college boring. I wouldn’t be surprised if some students like assignments better than parties. Exercise shouldn’t be skipped, though.
- nradov 6y ago
  I enjoyed the parties, but most colleges have a lot of other social opportunities. I was in a theater group, sailing club, fragged my friends in online video games, etc.
m463 6y ago
I remember listening to a Joe Rogan episode where he said that top fighters had a problem - if they kept trying to prepare they would overtrain and set themselves back. I can see how figuring out the difference between enough and too much is hard especially when your need to excel and maybe your identity is tied up in everything.

chrisseaton 6y ago

I don't know why the military academies in the US and Canada combine military and education at the same time. In the UK you focus on one at a time - education in a conventional civilian university like anyone else, and then military in a military academy afterwards. Why do you need the military to provide the education part? Seems like not their core competency.