5 ms·

> And while there is certainly room for improvement with typical webcams: the problem is in many cases not the camera, but the conditions under which it operate

> And while there is certainly room for improvement with typical webcams: the problem is in many cases not the camera, but the conditions under which it operates. Low light, shooting against the light, smeared laptop lenses, weird angles (not eye level), weird perspective framing, bad combination of light and framerates, mixed light temperatures, low CRI lighting, etc. If you take an 40k€ Arri and a 20k€ Zeiss Prime and do all of the above the result will still look more or less crappy. All this is true, yet the difference between a bad laptop webcam and a high-end phone front camera is huge.

musingsole 6y ago
A lot of work has been done on phone cameras to replace standalone cameras, but isn't half of the development investment there on the software side -- in addition to the hardware of the camera? (e.g. echoing GP's "crappy webcam pictures are filtered in ways that make them look acceptable etc" statement)
simonh 6y ago
The problem is laptop lids are a lot thinner than smartphones and just don't have the depth to contain a decent optic. Apple have tried to mitigate this a bit in the new M1 machines using some computational photography to improve the image. The Surface machines from Microsoft actually stand out in this regard. Because the brains of the machine are in the same section as the screen and camera, they are a lot thicker and can put in pretty decent camera modules.
- okr 6y ago
  My laptop lid is as thick as my smartphone. I think there is enough space. I think the technology from smart phones has not swept over to laptop lids yet.
  - brianwawok 6y ago
    What if the Smartphone camera cost $20, and the laptop camera cost $5 to manufacturer? Smart phones can maybe justify the extra $15, laptop makers cannot. If a laptop maker can't raise the price $15, it literally eats their profits.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - novok 6y ago
      Seriously? With laptops costing $1000+ I think they can afford to put in the $15 smartphone part from $300 smartphones in the higher end ones.
      - throwaway09223 6y ago
        Or, you know, just sell one as a USB peripheral.
      - m-p-3 6y ago
        If they can't justify the price increase and it doesn't make then a cpear winner against the competition, the manufacturer will cut some corners to stay competitive. At scale, an expense increase of $15 per device is quite significant.
        fomine3 6y ago
        Generally agree but even Apple MacBooks stuck at 720p webcam, why? Apple products should be able to pay additional cost for such parts.
        m-p-3 6y ago
        They are able to, but being able to shave a couple of cents on it gives them a massive return while most consumers don't complain, and their competitors aren't offering anything better.
      - michaelmrose 6y ago
        I believe they make 3-5% margin for a $30-$50 profit on the hardware in that example. They literally cannot afford that extra $15 unless they raise the price $15 and then they have to worry about whether a value conscious buyer buys their slightly cheaper alternative. Keeping in mind this is for a feature that most people actually don't care about.
  - simonh 6y ago
    If you have a decent thickness laptop lid and still have a crappy built in webcam, that’s just straight up nickel and dimming by the manufacturer.
- thayne 6y ago
  But why can't I buy an external webcam, where that isn't an issue, with the same quality as a smartphone camera?
  - lumost 6y ago
    The market for dedicated external webcams is a little sparse because most people don't want to have more peripherals. There's probably a good opportunity for home office external displays to incorporate smartphone cameras, studio mikes, and maybe even lighting elements to help people look good while working from home.
    - antiterra 6y ago
      Since COVID the webcam market has exploded. Logitech had to significantly ramp up production due to increase in demand back in April. It’s not just remote work, but also aspiring content creators.
      - sigstoat 6y ago
        > Since COVID the webcam market has exploded. companies that are crushed by demand for existing products, and dealing with covid-related supply chain issues, and long-term uncertainty about demand aren't going to have a lot of luck getting a new high-end product out in <9 months. among other reasons, getting these sorts of things made usually requires some travel by the engineers to the manufacturing/assembly facility to sort out problems.
        jakear 6y ago
        Sounds like a good opportunity for a Chinese company to do it, as they’re fully open.
        sigstoat 6y ago
        and yet, they will not.
- Guest19023892 6y ago
  I mentioned this before, but why not have a camera bump on the outside of laptops? Almost all modern smartphones have a camera bump. I Skype with family a couple of times a week. I'd gladly pay another $100-200 for a better integrated webcam.
rapind 6y ago
People walk around taking pictures and video with their phone. No one walks around with their laptop open taking pictures or filming the kids on the tobogganing hill. Now with everyone working remotely I could see a quality demand happening but no where near the interest in phone cams.
chrisweekly 6y ago
Good point. Speaking of phone cameras... I've had success using my iPhone for video capture via OBS. The setup was a bit fiddly, but still only took an hour-ish to try this approach by downloading and installing OBS, figuring out I needed a virtualcam plugin, finding it and fiddling w config, creating a dirt-simple "scene", and enabling it for use in Zoom. This is on an iPhone X (iOS 14.2), and Catalina (macOS 10.15.7).

musingsole 6y ago

A lot of work has been done on phone cameras to replace standalone cameras, but isn't half of the development investment there on the software side -- in addition to the hardware of the camera? (e.g. echoing GP's "crappy webcam pictures are filtered in ways that make them look acceptable etc" statement)

simonh 6y ago

The problem is laptop lids are a lot thinner than smartphones and just don't have the depth to contain a decent optic. Apple have tried to mitigate this a bit in the new M1 machines using some computational photography to improve the image. The Surface machines from Microsoft actually stand out in this regard. Because the brains of the machine are in the same section as the screen and camera, they are a lot thicker and can put in pretty decent camera modules.

okr 6y ago
My laptop lid is as thick as my smartphone. I think there is enough space. I think the technology from smart phones has not swept over to laptop lids yet.
- brianwawok 6y ago
  What if the Smartphone camera cost $20, and the laptop camera cost $5 to manufacturer? Smart phones can maybe justify the extra $15, laptop makers cannot. If a laptop maker can't raise the price $15, it literally eats their profits.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - novok 6y ago
    Seriously? With laptops costing $1000+ I think they can afford to put in the $15 smartphone part from $300 smartphones in the higher end ones.
    - throwaway09223 6y ago
      Or, you know, just sell one as a USB peripheral.
    - m-p-3 6y ago
      If they can't justify the price increase and it doesn't make then a cpear winner against the competition, the manufacturer will cut some corners to stay competitive. At scale, an expense increase of $15 per device is quite significant.
      - fomine3 6y ago
        Generally agree but even Apple MacBooks stuck at 720p webcam, why? Apple products should be able to pay additional cost for such parts.
        m-p-3 6y ago
        They are able to, but being able to shave a couple of cents on it gives them a massive return while most consumers don't complain, and their competitors aren't offering anything better.
    - michaelmrose 6y ago
      I believe they make 3-5% margin for a $30-$50 profit on the hardware in that example. They literally cannot afford that extra $15 unless they raise the price $15 and then they have to worry about whether a value conscious buyer buys their slightly cheaper alternative. Keeping in mind this is for a feature that most people actually don't care about.
- simonh 6y ago
  If you have a decent thickness laptop lid and still have a crappy built in webcam, that’s just straight up nickel and dimming by the manufacturer.
thayne 6y ago
But why can't I buy an external webcam, where that isn't an issue, with the same quality as a smartphone camera?
- lumost 6y ago
  The market for dedicated external webcams is a little sparse because most people don't want to have more peripherals. There's probably a good opportunity for home office external displays to incorporate smartphone cameras, studio mikes, and maybe even lighting elements to help people look good while working from home.
  - antiterra 6y ago
    Since COVID the webcam market has exploded. Logitech had to significantly ramp up production due to increase in demand back in April. It’s not just remote work, but also aspiring content creators.
    - sigstoat 6y ago
      > Since COVID the webcam market has exploded. companies that are crushed by demand for existing products, and dealing with covid-related supply chain issues, and long-term uncertainty about demand aren't going to have a lot of luck getting a new high-end product out in <9 months. among other reasons, getting these sorts of things made usually requires some travel by the engineers to the manufacturing/assembly facility to sort out problems.
      - jakear 6y ago
        Sounds like a good opportunity for a Chinese company to do it, as they’re fully open.
        sigstoat 6y ago
        and yet, they will not.
Guest19023892 6y ago
I mentioned this before, but why not have a camera bump on the outside of laptops? Almost all modern smartphones have a camera bump. I Skype with family a couple of times a week. I'd gladly pay another $100-200 for a better integrated webcam.

rapind 6y ago

People walk around taking pictures and video with their phone. No one walks around with their laptop open taking pictures or filming the kids on the tobogganing hill. Now with everyone working remotely I could see a quality demand happening but no where near the interest in phone cams.

chrisweekly 6y ago

Good point. Speaking of phone cameras... I've had success using my iPhone for video capture via OBS. The setup was a bit fiddly, but still only took an hour-ish to try this approach by downloading and installing OBS, figuring out I needed a virtualcam plugin, finding it and fiddling w config, creating a dirt-simple "scene", and enabling it for use in Zoom. This is on an iPhone X (iOS 14.2), and Catalina (macOS 10.15.7).