9 ms·

As I was reading this, this is the picture that popped in my mind's eye: ^ | | _ /\ | \/ \/

by cs702 6y ago

Veen 6y ago
Individuals cheating and lying is to be expected. Trust in institutions is damaged when they get away with it. The most damaging aspect of this story is that the cheats are being allowed to continue on the course.
- cheschire 6y ago
  Especially when one considers the opportunities they would get later in life with that secret decoder ring. https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west-point/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west...
- qntty 6y ago
  Maybe I'm cynical, but I lost my trust in educational institutions when I realized how disconnected grades are from learning. Learning about people cheating didn't do anything to change my opinion. If anything, it made me hopeful to know that people seem to naturally resist participating in poorly designed institutions even if they don't share my bigger picture view of them.
  - pc86 6y ago
    You say grades are disconnected from learning without provided any evidence (or even an anecdote for an example). I'm not saying you're wrong but some supporting evidence would be good as this wasn't my experience in undergrad and isn't my experience now.
    - tmotwu 6y ago
      I went to a target school. Most reputable TAs and Professors I've met agree grades are mostly a scam. Historical issues with grade inflation or large curve disparities across semesters because departments force fixed grading distributions, devoid of any context. It makes it harder to design fair exams and homeworks. The only thing grades are good for are improvement indicators - not if you did well with understanding the material of the class you took. Some professors choose students to assist in classes based on how they improved from prerequisites, rather than if they got an A/B/C.
    - Retric 6y ago
      The obvious example of cheating resulting in higher grades independent of effort or learning is kind of besides the point. Picking different professors will also result in better grades independent of effort or knowledge. One of my math teachers literally gave everyone that showed up to an upper level class an A, and said he wanted to cover more material rather than have a final. The most clear cut example of grades independent of learning is someone that knows the subject and is unable to test out of the class. In such cases they can get top scores without learning anything. If you’re arguing that they reflect having learned the material at some time. I knew people with significant time pressure like a full time job that knew the material very well, but simply aimed for a lower grade on assignments as a means of managing their time. Grading on a curve means you need to find something that separates A’s from B’s when everyone learns the material and that’s often just effort.
  - canjobear 6y ago
    This isn't just any educational institution. It's the training ground for army officers, and one with a very high reputation. This isn't just someone with an easy degree getting all A's based on dubiously challenging coursework. These are officers who are supposed to be entrusted with command and people's lives.
  - calibas 6y ago
    I think most people understand grades aren't purely a measure of how well you know a subject, but also related to how much your parents donated to the university, or how important you are to the football team. What should devastate people's trust in educational institutions is the relationship between Harvard and Epstein. We get to watch this university, whom I'm told is full of the world's smartest people, claim it was ignorant of what was really going on. Harvard gave a sex trafficker a security card and his own office while he paid them millions. Harvard faculty was even joining him at his parties, I find it hard to believe what he was doing was really a secret.
    - impendia 6y ago
      Regarding grading: I am a professor at a large American state university where football is king. I have never been pressured to change a grade for the kinds of reasons you mention. I'm not saying that grading is perfect -- measuring what has been learned is hard, and there can be pressure not to be too harsh overall. But this sort of corruption is, in my observation, not widespread.
      - calibas 6y ago
        Have you ever failed a football player?
        impendia 6y ago
        I have not, to my knowledge, ever had a football player in one of my classes.
        calibas 6y ago
        Suppose you had an important football player in a class, and because of a grade you gave he missed a big game, do you believe there would be negative repercussions? If so, there's at least a little bit of pressure towards passing those students. I wouldn't even call it "corruption", just normal human bias that everyone is guilty of.
  - Rumudiez 6y ago
    Ok, but do you go to school for the grades or to learn? Grades are like performance reviews. They might matter to your teacher/manager/school/employer, but they sure as hell don’t matter to me because I’m the judge of my own success.
  - hnracer 6y ago
    I share your view. My strategy in university was to memorize as much as I could going into the exam and then garbage collect 1 day later and be left with nothing. This was an arrogant waste of time, but my priorities at that time were to simultaneously max(grades) and min(effort), with the end goal being a job, and my strategy optimally satisfied those goals. In hindsight I wish that things had been designed differently to prevent gaming the system in such a way, to save me from myself, but alas they were not (and still aren't).
- dak1 6y ago
  I went to West Point almost two decades ago. It's important to remember that almost every cadet here was a plebe (1st year student). Plebes are under enormous pressure, and they are only just beginning the inculcation of the honor code (they've all only been there about 6 months now). Traditionally, they are given by far the most leeway. The expectation is that going through this process will only hasten and harden their understanding of the importance of the honor code. I recall reading stories in the news about happenings when I was cadet, and there's always invariably some nuances and details that are either incorrect, missing, or misunderstood by people not familiar with West Point. Some cadets are also still going to go before an honor board, which may very well lead to their separation. Without knowing more details, I trust the administration (including cadet-led) to take actions in the best interest of our country, the institution, and the Corps.
  - ZanyProgrammer 6y ago
    An E4 cheating on land-nav at PLDC/WLC/BLC whatever it's being called these days gets treated more harshly.
    - bilbo0s 6y ago
      No question about that. Ironically, that knowledge leads to a crisis of trust in military institutions among enlisteds. The trust problem is critical and far ranging, but also multifaceted. It permeates not only the military but all of US society at this point. I'm honestly unsure as to the best solutions? We may only be able to restore trust with glacial change rather than sea change.
      - vkou 6y ago
        > I'm honestly unsure as to the best solutions? As someone who has never been in a military, I'm going to throw out a wild idea: I can't imagine that restoring this trust will be easy as long as officers aren't drawn from the pool of enlisted men.
weallcheat 6y ago
Throwaway for obvious reasons. When did you go to university? As I went a couple years ago and cheating was universal to the point that you could ask random classmates for the answers to quizzes you had not done yet and the frosh leaders collaborated to give the year below them all the answers. We had a massive drive of answers maintained by the student society. Academic integrity was an absurd pretense. Except for a few niche programs like political science and history, it just did not exist. Not arguing that this is a good thing, just that higher education in general is not all that reliable.
- cs702 6y ago
  West Point is not a run-of-the-mill academic institution. Its mission is to recruit people of character and train them for positions of leadership. Cadets must be nominated by a member of Congress, or by the President or Vice President. West Point occupies a special place in the US, both at present and throughout the country's history: https://www.westpoint.edu/about/history-of-west-point https://www.westpoint.edu/about/history-of-west-point
  - weallcheat 6y ago
    All the more reason to cheat to get there and cheat to stay in.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- engineer_22 6y ago
  Wow, I'm impressed how organized you all were. Must be an Ivy grad...
  - aj7 6y ago
    It ain’t “organization.” I studied so hard in high school, college, and my first year of graduate school that I laughed sometimes at the problems on final exams— because I had seen very similar ones in my preparation. That’s why this scandal, in freshman calculus, is so serious. This is how you get later-dissimulating individuals, like Westmoreland, Petraus, Flynn, Pompeo. You want more headlines like these?
branweb 6y ago
considering iraq wmd, the financial collapse, the bailout, syria, libya, russia-gate, and the pandemic (among other things) I think the x-axis should go back further and resemble a negative sloping line instead.
jklinger410 6y ago
I think you have the right idea. A large drop occurred in the 60s, again in the 90s, and since 2000 to today it is at an all-time low. These cadets were likely not raised to respect this country in its current form.
KLexpat 6y ago
We lose trust in institutions when prospective government employees cheat on maths tests, but when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred children, burned down peoples farms, etc in the war that occured between 2001-present... we wondered about brad pitt, paris hilton... and kim kardashians hair colour. We want them to be really really good at following orders and not to think too much about the moral aspect of bombing civilians. The reason cheating is banned in West Point is not because it is wrong, but because it displays that people prioritise their own individuality over that of the institution, and that they do not blindly believe in its ideals
- engineer_22 6y ago
  -> when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred children, burned down peoples farms, etc in the war that occured between 2001-present Please cite sources.
  - kenned3 6y ago
    I am not the one who posted about this.. but it annoys me when people dont google things.. https://www.washingtonpost.com/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/ washington post good enough for you?
    - engineer_22 6y ago
      ? Thanks for sharing
  - KLexpat 6y ago
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09/u-s-led-forces-appear-to-be-using-white-phosphorous-in-populated-areas-in-iraq-and-syria/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_ab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-tr... https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_from_cambodia_to_iraq.pdf https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_f... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afghanistan2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afgh... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-opium-poppy-production/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/... "But within a year, Operation Iron Tempest had fizzled out. Many of the suspected labs turned out to be empty, mud-walled compounds. After more than 200 airstrikes, the U.S. military concluded it was a waste of resources to keep blowing up primitive targets with advanced aircraft and laser-guided munitions." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-conf...
godelzilla 6y ago
Hopefully trust is always at zero for any adult with critical faculties.
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
While you raise a good point, the ascii art is a bit much. It may be novel because it's rarely done, but novel doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the site.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ASalazarMX 6y ago
Completely off-topic, but I was surprised about how you made such a smooth graphic with ASCII, but it was my glasses that were dirty.
jandrese 6y ago
Shouldn't that drop happen around 2016 when people who hated major institutions and wanted them destroyed were put in charge of them?
fullshark 6y ago
FYI: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.as...

by cs702 6y ago

Veen 6y ago

Individuals cheating and lying is to be expected. Trust in institutions is damaged when they get away with it. The most damaging aspect of this story is that the cheats are being allowed to continue on the course.

cheschire 6y ago
Especially when one considers the opportunities they would get later in life with that secret decoder ring. https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west-point/ https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/esper-pompeo-west...
qntty 6y ago
Maybe I'm cynical, but I lost my trust in educational institutions when I realized how disconnected grades are from learning. Learning about people cheating didn't do anything to change my opinion. If anything, it made me hopeful to know that people seem to naturally resist participating in poorly designed institutions even if they don't share my bigger picture view of them.
- pc86 6y ago
  You say grades are disconnected from learning without provided any evidence (or even an anecdote for an example). I'm not saying you're wrong but some supporting evidence would be good as this wasn't my experience in undergrad and isn't my experience now.
  - tmotwu 6y ago
    I went to a target school. Most reputable TAs and Professors I've met agree grades are mostly a scam. Historical issues with grade inflation or large curve disparities across semesters because departments force fixed grading distributions, devoid of any context. It makes it harder to design fair exams and homeworks. The only thing grades are good for are improvement indicators - not if you did well with understanding the material of the class you took. Some professors choose students to assist in classes based on how they improved from prerequisites, rather than if they got an A/B/C.
  - Retric 6y ago
    The obvious example of cheating resulting in higher grades independent of effort or learning is kind of besides the point. Picking different professors will also result in better grades independent of effort or knowledge. One of my math teachers literally gave everyone that showed up to an upper level class an A, and said he wanted to cover more material rather than have a final. The most clear cut example of grades independent of learning is someone that knows the subject and is unable to test out of the class. In such cases they can get top scores without learning anything. If you’re arguing that they reflect having learned the material at some time. I knew people with significant time pressure like a full time job that knew the material very well, but simply aimed for a lower grade on assignments as a means of managing their time. Grading on a curve means you need to find something that separates A’s from B’s when everyone learns the material and that’s often just effort.
- canjobear 6y ago
  This isn't just any educational institution. It's the training ground for army officers, and one with a very high reputation. This isn't just someone with an easy degree getting all A's based on dubiously challenging coursework. These are officers who are supposed to be entrusted with command and people's lives.
- calibas 6y ago
  I think most people understand grades aren't purely a measure of how well you know a subject, but also related to how much your parents donated to the university, or how important you are to the football team. What should devastate people's trust in educational institutions is the relationship between Harvard and Epstein. We get to watch this university, whom I'm told is full of the world's smartest people, claim it was ignorant of what was really going on. Harvard gave a sex trafficker a security card and his own office while he paid them millions. Harvard faculty was even joining him at his parties, I find it hard to believe what he was doing was really a secret.
  - impendia 6y ago
    Regarding grading: I am a professor at a large American state university where football is king. I have never been pressured to change a grade for the kinds of reasons you mention. I'm not saying that grading is perfect -- measuring what has been learned is hard, and there can be pressure not to be too harsh overall. But this sort of corruption is, in my observation, not widespread.
    - calibas 6y ago
      Have you ever failed a football player?
      - impendia 6y ago
        I have not, to my knowledge, ever had a football player in one of my classes.
        calibas 6y ago
        Suppose you had an important football player in a class, and because of a grade you gave he missed a big game, do you believe there would be negative repercussions? If so, there's at least a little bit of pressure towards passing those students. I wouldn't even call it "corruption", just normal human bias that everyone is guilty of.
- Rumudiez 6y ago
  Ok, but do you go to school for the grades or to learn? Grades are like performance reviews. They might matter to your teacher/manager/school/employer, but they sure as hell don’t matter to me because I’m the judge of my own success.
- hnracer 6y ago
  I share your view. My strategy in university was to memorize as much as I could going into the exam and then garbage collect 1 day later and be left with nothing. This was an arrogant waste of time, but my priorities at that time were to simultaneously max(grades) and min(effort), with the end goal being a job, and my strategy optimally satisfied those goals. In hindsight I wish that things had been designed differently to prevent gaming the system in such a way, to save me from myself, but alas they were not (and still aren't).
dak1 6y ago
I went to West Point almost two decades ago. It's important to remember that almost every cadet here was a plebe (1st year student). Plebes are under enormous pressure, and they are only just beginning the inculcation of the honor code (they've all only been there about 6 months now). Traditionally, they are given by far the most leeway. The expectation is that going through this process will only hasten and harden their understanding of the importance of the honor code. I recall reading stories in the news about happenings when I was cadet, and there's always invariably some nuances and details that are either incorrect, missing, or misunderstood by people not familiar with West Point. Some cadets are also still going to go before an honor board, which may very well lead to their separation. Without knowing more details, I trust the administration (including cadet-led) to take actions in the best interest of our country, the institution, and the Corps.
- ZanyProgrammer 6y ago
  An E4 cheating on land-nav at PLDC/WLC/BLC whatever it's being called these days gets treated more harshly.
  - bilbo0s 6y ago
    No question about that. Ironically, that knowledge leads to a crisis of trust in military institutions among enlisteds. The trust problem is critical and far ranging, but also multifaceted. It permeates not only the military but all of US society at this point. I'm honestly unsure as to the best solutions? We may only be able to restore trust with glacial change rather than sea change.
    - vkou 6y ago
      > I'm honestly unsure as to the best solutions? As someone who has never been in a military, I'm going to throw out a wild idea: I can't imagine that restoring this trust will be easy as long as officers aren't drawn from the pool of enlisted men.

weallcheat 6y ago

Throwaway for obvious reasons. When did you go to university? As I went a couple years ago and cheating was universal to the point that you could ask random classmates for the answers to quizzes you had not done yet and the frosh leaders collaborated to give the year below them all the answers. We had a massive drive of answers maintained by the student society. Academic integrity was an absurd pretense. Except for a few niche programs like political science and history, it just did not exist. Not arguing that this is a good thing, just that higher education in general is not all that reliable.

cs702 6y ago
West Point is not a run-of-the-mill academic institution. Its mission is to recruit people of character and train them for positions of leadership. Cadets must be nominated by a member of Congress, or by the President or Vice President. West Point occupies a special place in the US, both at present and throughout the country's history: https://www.westpoint.edu/about/history-of-west-point https://www.westpoint.edu/about/history-of-west-point
- weallcheat 6y ago
  All the more reason to cheat to get there and cheat to stay in.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
engineer_22 6y ago
Wow, I'm impressed how organized you all were. Must be an Ivy grad...
- aj7 6y ago
  It ain’t “organization.” I studied so hard in high school, college, and my first year of graduate school that I laughed sometimes at the problems on final exams— because I had seen very similar ones in my preparation. That’s why this scandal, in freshman calculus, is so serious. This is how you get later-dissimulating individuals, like Westmoreland, Petraus, Flynn, Pompeo. You want more headlines like these?

branweb 6y ago

considering iraq wmd, the financial collapse, the bailout, syria, libya, russia-gate, and the pandemic (among other things) I think the x-axis should go back further and resemble a negative sloping line instead.

jklinger410 6y ago

I think you have the right idea. A large drop occurred in the 60s, again in the 90s, and since 2000 to today it is at an all-time low. These cadets were likely not raised to respect this country in its current form.

KLexpat 6y ago

We lose trust in institutions when prospective government employees cheat on maths tests, but when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred children, burned down peoples farms, etc in the war that occured between 2001-present... we wondered about brad pitt, paris hilton... and kim kardashians hair colour. We want them to be really really good at following orders and not to think too much about the moral aspect of bombing civilians. The reason cheating is banned in West Point is not because it is wrong, but because it displays that people prioritise their own individuality over that of the institution, and that they do not blindly believe in its ideals

engineer_22 6y ago
-> when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred children, burned down peoples farms, etc in the war that occured between 2001-present Please cite sources.
- kenned3 6y ago
  I am not the one who posted about this.. but it annoys me when people dont google things.. https://www.washingtonpost.com/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/ washington post good enough for you?
  - engineer_22 6y ago
    ? Thanks for sharing
- KLexpat 6y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09/u-s-led-forces-appear-to-be-using-white-phosphorous-in-populated-areas-in-iraq-and-syria/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_ab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-tr... https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_from_cambodia_to_iraq.pdf https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_f... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afghanistan2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afgh... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-opium-poppy-production/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/... "But within a year, Operation Iron Tempest had fizzled out. Many of the suspected labs turned out to be empty, mud-walled compounds. After more than 200 airstrikes, the U.S. military concluded it was a waste of resources to keep blowing up primitive targets with advanced aircraft and laser-guided munitions." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-conf...

godelzilla 6y ago

Hopefully trust is always at zero for any adult with critical faculties.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago

While you raise a good point, the ascii art is a bit much. It may be novel because it's rarely done, but novel doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the site.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ASalazarMX 6y ago

Completely off-topic, but I was surprised about how you made such a smooth graphic with ASCII, but it was my glasses that were dirty.

jandrese 6y ago

Shouldn't that drop happen around 2016 when people who hated major institutions and wanted them destroyed were put in charge of them?

fullshark 6y ago

FYI: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.as...