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I don't entirely understand what's happening here. The title and the post talk a lot about "Bare-Metal", but it also seems to indicate that everything is hosted

I don't entirely understand what's happening here. The title and the post talk a lot about "Bare-Metal", but it also seems to indicate that everything is hosted on servers running Ubuntu. Which, if accurate, seems to be Kubernetes running on Linux, not bare-metal?

scaladev 6y ago
I guess "bare-metal" is Newspeak for "running directly on hardware without a hypervisor".
- oblio 6y ago
  It's not "Newspeak". Kubernetes is an application, it runs on an OS. You can call it "Newspeak" if you consider anything after VMs became super popular "Newspeak" (around 2010, I think?). Bare-metal = no VMs or other virtualization involved.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    It is somewhat "newspeak", as bare metal has meant "without an OS" in the embedded space for a very long time. This is just a case of two different spaces using the same term for different ideas.
    - throwaway894345 6y ago
      Sometimes terms are overloaded for different domains. This is pretty common; no need to argue about which is The One True Definition.
      - tyingq 6y ago
        Hence, "just a case".
        dividedbyzero 6y ago
        But that's not (Orwellian) newspeak at all, is it? That term carries some very strong negative connotations.
        tyingq 6y ago
        I did couch it with "somewhat". Though it does fit the theme of a diminished meaning for the same word, since the newer meaning is a much simpler thing to do.
    - marcosdumay 6y ago
      Bare metal has meant "whithout a supervisor" to operations for more than a decade. It has also meant "without an emulator" to the emulation community for a really long time. I imagine it also has some meaning for the music community.
      - tyingq 6y ago
        Sure. For comparison, I can find references to "bare metal" meaning "no operating system" dating back to 1989...3 decades: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a219356.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a219356.pdf (search for bare-metal) I suspect it comes from the automotive paint industry. Sanding down to the "bare metal" for the best finish...where the primer and paint are as close to the substrate as they can be.
- aij 6y ago
  You mean it's Newspeak for "running under a supervisor, but without the supervisor running under a hypervisor".
AntiImperialis2 6y ago
Bare-metal refers to running on hardware directly (vs. running on VMs or the cloud). I'm interested to know what you thought it was.
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  Traditionally “bare-metal” would refer to running directly on physical hardware with no operating system. In the context of cloud providers, “metal” does now seem to mean “doesn’t run in a VM” but to varying extents. Seems like an unnecessary overload.
- _jal 6y ago
  In the dark ages, when running an OS in the way you're referring to 'bare metal' was the default, it meant running something without a traditional kernel underneath it. Not many things are written to do that, of course. Oracle used to offer an installation mode like this. It was generally a gimmick - you pay for a tiny bit of performance with a ton of flexibility. There are probably use cases where it makes sense, but not that many.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Yeah, but it was a super niche term back then. After 2010, at least, bare metal was used a lot more for: "running the OS we need (+ app) directly on a physical server". This usage has been, in my experience, a lot more widespread.
  - aetimmes 6y ago
    Hmm - what's the overlap between your definition of "bare metal" and the current definition of "embedded"? I will say, this comment section is the first time I'm hearing about "bare-metal" meaning "without an OS", but the above question is genuine curiosity.
    - thowawayyy 6y ago
      Those terms are orthogonal. Embedded typically refers to running on some HW that is not typically thought of as a computer. Embedded SW can run within an OS or on bare metal.
cassianoleal 6y ago
Kubernetes relies on containers, which are made out of cgroups and namespaces. Those are Linux features, so there's no way around that. This is as bare-metal as it gets since it's not running on a VM.
- xaduha 6y ago
  Point here is that term bare-metal cannot apply to applications relying on OS features. Unikernels are the closest thing you can use this term in this area.
  - the_jeremy 6y ago
    This is not how I've heard any of my coworkers define bare-metal. Obviously anecdotal, but I think you are in the minority here.
    - thelastwave 6y ago
      Turns out, the minority is right FWIW. But you still can't stop language from changing no matter how "right" you are you.
  - cassianoleal 6y ago
    Wikipedia [0] doesn't agree with you (neither do I, but who am I anyway?): "A bare-metal server is a computer server that hosts one tenant, or consumer, only.[1] The term is used for distinguishing between servers that can host multiple tenants and which utilize virtualisation and cloud hosting.[2] Such servers are used by a single consumer and are not shared between consumers. Each server may run any amount of work for a user, or have multiple simultaneous users, but they are dedicated entirely to the entity who is renting them. Unlike servers in a data centre, they are not being shared between multiple customers. Bare-metal servers are physical servers. Each server offered for rental is a distinct physical piece of hardware that is a functional server on its own. They are not virtual servers running in multiple pieces of shared hardware." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare-metal_server https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare-metal_server
JamesSwift 6y ago
It appears there's two camps in the audience. The camp I'm familiar with (and it appears the author as well) use bare-metal to mean running on your own computers (either in-house or colo) instead of in a VM on a cloud provider.
- 3np 6y ago
  I am yet to come across usage where the context doesn't make it unambiguous what it means. It can mean both things at the same time.
  - JamesSwift 6y ago
    I agree, I'm just saying that both sides are understandably confused because its clear that both sides were unfamiliar with the other meaning.
- xaduha 6y ago
  Just call it physical or dedicated servers.
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  Everyone is right. Each group have their own background or silo or bubble or industry and each can use the word. Nobody can claim exclusive ownership unless they have a trademark. The one that still boggles my little mind is "Apple". How a company can own exclusive rights to that I will never understand, regardless of how many times a lawyer explains it to me.
mikesabbagh 6y ago
Running Kubernetes on Ubuntu is a bad idea especially if it is multitenant. You can have a lot of security issues there as users can run anything on those nodes. This exercise is far from production
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  What's the problem with Ubuntu specifically (vs ex. Alpine or RHEL)?

scaladev 6y ago

I guess "bare-metal" is Newspeak for "running directly on hardware without a hypervisor".

oblio 6y ago
It's not "Newspeak". Kubernetes is an application, it runs on an OS. You can call it "Newspeak" if you consider anything after VMs became super popular "Newspeak" (around 2010, I think?). Bare-metal = no VMs or other virtualization involved.
- tyingq 6y ago
  It is somewhat "newspeak", as bare metal has meant "without an OS" in the embedded space for a very long time. This is just a case of two different spaces using the same term for different ideas.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    Sometimes terms are overloaded for different domains. This is pretty common; no need to argue about which is The One True Definition.
    - tyingq 6y ago
      Hence, "just a case".
      - dividedbyzero 6y ago
        But that's not (Orwellian) newspeak at all, is it? That term carries some very strong negative connotations.
        tyingq 6y ago
        I did couch it with "somewhat". Though it does fit the theme of a diminished meaning for the same word, since the newer meaning is a much simpler thing to do.
  - marcosdumay 6y ago
    Bare metal has meant "whithout a supervisor" to operations for more than a decade. It has also meant "without an emulator" to the emulation community for a really long time. I imagine it also has some meaning for the music community.
    - tyingq 6y ago
      Sure. For comparison, I can find references to "bare metal" meaning "no operating system" dating back to 1989...3 decades: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a219356.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a219356.pdf (search for bare-metal) I suspect it comes from the automotive paint industry. Sanding down to the "bare metal" for the best finish...where the primer and paint are as close to the substrate as they can be.
aij 6y ago
You mean it's Newspeak for "running under a supervisor, but without the supervisor running under a hypervisor".

AntiImperialis2 6y ago

Bare-metal refers to running on hardware directly (vs. running on VMs or the cloud). I'm interested to know what you thought it was.

matthewmacleod 6y ago
Traditionally “bare-metal” would refer to running directly on physical hardware with no operating system. In the context of cloud providers, “metal” does now seem to mean “doesn’t run in a VM” but to varying extents. Seems like an unnecessary overload.
_jal 6y ago
In the dark ages, when running an OS in the way you're referring to 'bare metal' was the default, it meant running something without a traditional kernel underneath it. Not many things are written to do that, of course. Oracle used to offer an installation mode like this. It was generally a gimmick - you pay for a tiny bit of performance with a ton of flexibility. There are probably use cases where it makes sense, but not that many.
- oblio 6y ago
  Yeah, but it was a super niche term back then. After 2010, at least, bare metal was used a lot more for: "running the OS we need (+ app) directly on a physical server". This usage has been, in my experience, a lot more widespread.
- aetimmes 6y ago
  Hmm - what's the overlap between your definition of "bare metal" and the current definition of "embedded"? I will say, this comment section is the first time I'm hearing about "bare-metal" meaning "without an OS", but the above question is genuine curiosity.
  - thowawayyy 6y ago
    Those terms are orthogonal. Embedded typically refers to running on some HW that is not typically thought of as a computer. Embedded SW can run within an OS or on bare metal.

cassianoleal 6y ago

Kubernetes relies on containers, which are made out of cgroups and namespaces. Those are Linux features, so there's no way around that. This is as bare-metal as it gets since it's not running on a VM.

xaduha 6y ago
Point here is that term bare-metal cannot apply to applications relying on OS features. Unikernels are the closest thing you can use this term in this area.
- the_jeremy 6y ago
  This is not how I've heard any of my coworkers define bare-metal. Obviously anecdotal, but I think you are in the minority here.
  - thelastwave 6y ago
    Turns out, the minority is right FWIW. But you still can't stop language from changing no matter how "right" you are you.
- cassianoleal 6y ago
  Wikipedia [0] doesn't agree with you (neither do I, but who am I anyway?): "A bare-metal server is a computer server that hosts one tenant, or consumer, only.[1] The term is used for distinguishing between servers that can host multiple tenants and which utilize virtualisation and cloud hosting.[2] Such servers are used by a single consumer and are not shared between consumers. Each server may run any amount of work for a user, or have multiple simultaneous users, but they are dedicated entirely to the entity who is renting them. Unlike servers in a data centre, they are not being shared between multiple customers. Bare-metal servers are physical servers. Each server offered for rental is a distinct physical piece of hardware that is a functional server on its own. They are not virtual servers running in multiple pieces of shared hardware." [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare-metal_server https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare-metal_server

JamesSwift 6y ago

It appears there's two camps in the audience. The camp I'm familiar with (and it appears the author as well) use bare-metal to mean running on your own computers (either in-house or colo) instead of in a VM on a cloud provider.

3np 6y ago
I am yet to come across usage where the context doesn't make it unambiguous what it means. It can mean both things at the same time.
- JamesSwift 6y ago
  I agree, I'm just saying that both sides are understandably confused because its clear that both sides were unfamiliar with the other meaning.
xaduha 6y ago
Just call it physical or dedicated servers.
LinuxBender 6y ago
Everyone is right. Each group have their own background or silo or bubble or industry and each can use the word. Nobody can claim exclusive ownership unless they have a trademark. The one that still boggles my little mind is "Apple". How a company can own exclusive rights to that I will never understand, regardless of how many times a lawyer explains it to me.

mikesabbagh 6y ago

Running Kubernetes on Ubuntu is a bad idea especially if it is multitenant. You can have a lot of security issues there as users can run anything on those nodes. This exercise is far from production

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
What's the problem with Ubuntu specifically (vs ex. Alpine or RHEL)?