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Seeing as encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking - I wholly support this change. Being poor in a car city is someth

Seeing as encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking - I wholly support this change. Being poor in a car city is something most folks in the circles I run in now have never experienced or thought about. The documentary “Los Angeles Plays Itself” has a fantastic section about this.

GhostVII 6y ago
> Seeing as encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. So no that is not true in any way, especially when you account for armed vs unarmed police shootings (~25 unarmed black people were shot and killed by police in 2019, where unarmed includes fake guns).
- jgwil2 6y ago
  "Pedestrian deaths" does not equal "deaths caused by jaywalking." > There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. The first assertion actually cuts against your argument. If there are far more instances of jaywalking than police encounters, then even if there are many more deaths caused by jaywalking, police encounters could still be deadlier on a per-instance basis.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  >There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. "And yet" is entirely the wrong conjunction here; if there are more instances of jaywalking than police encounters, then it logically follows there would be more deaths. In fact, I'd argue that there are far more than 6x as many instances of jaywalking than there are police encounters, which kind of undermines your whole point.
  - GhostVII 6y ago
    Ah yea I had that flipped. Not all 6k deaths are from jaywalking, and not all 1k police deaths are unjustified so probably a poor comparison regardless
vorpalhex 6y ago
> encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking 36 pedestrians were killed last year in accidents in my city. We have one contested police shooting. 31 the year before that, two contested shootings. At least biweekly there's an article in the local paper about someone hit while illegally crossing a highway, often at night. I have unfortunately seen a pedestrian get hit by crossing on a red walk sign, luckily they survived.
- wonnage 6y ago
  Criminalizing jaywalking is not going to stop any of this.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  >I have unfortunately seen a pedestrian get hit by crossing on a red walk sign Which is an indication that jaywalking isn't the real problem here, it's inattentive drivers. How many of the 36 above were similar situations?
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    You're right, drivers should simply pause physics and magically stop their vehicle or wear nightvision goggles at all times. I was making a right turn on a 40mph road on a green light. There's a crosswalk there so I checked and the crosswalk was vacant, made the turn and proceeded to get up to speed on that road. And then immediately did a hard brake because a woman was illegally crossing the road around a bend, covered by trees, with a kid being dragged behind her, 40 feet from a crosswalk that clearly indicated DO NOT WALK. There's a reason we have signs. Follow the signs. Having the right away is not the same as being impervious to being struck by a moving vehicle.
    - reportingsjr 6y ago
      For every instance a driver like you has with someone crossing like that, there are probably 100+ of someone walking and a driver nearly plowing over them. I walk and bike around my town a lot, and I'm very cognizant of my surroundings. I can not even count how many times I've had people driving see me start to go in to a crosswalk and just totally blast through it, back out of driveways where I was very visible on the driver's side and not even look (TWICE only getting attention in time to not get hit by bashing on the car), people driving at high speed in to parking lots inches away. A month ago I was walking out of a nearby park on the only road in and out, that doesn't have a sidewalk for some idiotic reason, and I had some asshole try to sideswipe me and ended up clipping me with their mirror on purpose. Think about this next time you bring up a single instance of someone walking in a dangerous way. The design of cities in the US and the contempt of many people driving is many, many times worse for pedestrians than the other way around.
_jal 6y ago
I would say that differently. Given that non-cop/cop interactions are not risk-free, avoiding them is only sensible, as is not creating unnecessary reasons for interaction, like inventing "crimes" like this. If you don't like thinking of cops as danger sources, then tell yourself it frees up cops for more important work.

GhostVII 6y ago

> Seeing as encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. So no that is not true in any way, especially when you account for armed vs unarmed police shootings (~25 unarmed black people were shot and killed by police in 2019, where unarmed includes fake guns).

jgwil2 6y ago
"Pedestrian deaths" does not equal "deaths caused by jaywalking." > There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. The first assertion actually cuts against your argument. If there are far more instances of jaywalking than police encounters, then even if there are many more deaths caused by jaywalking, police encounters could still be deadlier on a per-instance basis.
LordDragonfang 6y ago
>There are far more instances of jaywalking than police interactions, and yet pedestrian deaths are 6x higher than deaths from police. "And yet" is entirely the wrong conjunction here; if there are more instances of jaywalking than police encounters, then it logically follows there would be more deaths. In fact, I'd argue that there are far more than 6x as many instances of jaywalking than there are police encounters, which kind of undermines your whole point.
- GhostVII 6y ago
  Ah yea I had that flipped. Not all 6k deaths are from jaywalking, and not all 1k police deaths are unjustified so probably a poor comparison regardless

vorpalhex 6y ago

> encounters with law enforcement are probably more deadly on average than jaywalking 36 pedestrians were killed last year in accidents in my city. We have one contested police shooting. 31 the year before that, two contested shootings. At least biweekly there's an article in the local paper about someone hit while illegally crossing a highway, often at night. I have unfortunately seen a pedestrian get hit by crossing on a red walk sign, luckily they survived.

wonnage 6y ago
Criminalizing jaywalking is not going to stop any of this.
LordDragonfang 6y ago
>I have unfortunately seen a pedestrian get hit by crossing on a red walk sign Which is an indication that jaywalking isn't the real problem here, it's inattentive drivers. How many of the 36 above were similar situations?
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  You're right, drivers should simply pause physics and magically stop their vehicle or wear nightvision goggles at all times. I was making a right turn on a 40mph road on a green light. There's a crosswalk there so I checked and the crosswalk was vacant, made the turn and proceeded to get up to speed on that road. And then immediately did a hard brake because a woman was illegally crossing the road around a bend, covered by trees, with a kid being dragged behind her, 40 feet from a crosswalk that clearly indicated DO NOT WALK. There's a reason we have signs. Follow the signs. Having the right away is not the same as being impervious to being struck by a moving vehicle.
  - reportingsjr 6y ago
    For every instance a driver like you has with someone crossing like that, there are probably 100+ of someone walking and a driver nearly plowing over them. I walk and bike around my town a lot, and I'm very cognizant of my surroundings. I can not even count how many times I've had people driving see me start to go in to a crosswalk and just totally blast through it, back out of driveways where I was very visible on the driver's side and not even look (TWICE only getting attention in time to not get hit by bashing on the car), people driving at high speed in to parking lots inches away. A month ago I was walking out of a nearby park on the only road in and out, that doesn't have a sidewalk for some idiotic reason, and I had some asshole try to sideswipe me and ended up clipping me with their mirror on purpose. Think about this next time you bring up a single instance of someone walking in a dangerous way. The design of cities in the US and the contempt of many people driving is many, many times worse for pedestrians than the other way around.

_jal 6y ago

I would say that differently. Given that non-cop/cop interactions are not risk-free, avoiding them is only sensible, as is not creating unnecessary reasons for interaction, like inventing "crimes" like this. If you don't like thinking of cops as danger sources, then tell yourself it frees up cops for more important work.