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The contractor example is a broken analogy. Apple’s manufacturing experience is as deep as any firm in the world and their ability to audit manufacturers is muc

The contractor example is a broken analogy. Apple’s manufacturing experience is as deep as any firm in the world and their ability to audit manufacturers is much different from your ability to audit a contractor. They will rise and fall to the level of accountability that the public is willing to hold them too.

gruez 6y ago
>and their ability to audit manufacturers is much different from your ability to audit a contractor. Apple could audit them, but is it common practice to do so? Otherwise this seems like a case of hindsight is 20/20.
- adkadskhj 6y ago
  Why would they audit if they're not held accountable? This starts to become chicken and egg, it sounds like. Perhaps best to just pick the party that should be responsible and then move forward.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  Yes, it's common practice to perform due diligence and regular audits on your manufacturing chains, especially ones that yearly get news articles about how many of your workers commit suicide.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
The problem is that Apple would have to establish its own private Ministry of Labour to meet this level of accountability, telling everyone exactly what their labor standards need to be and deputizing investigators to go poke around in response to any accusations. I don't think Apple should have that level of power over other companies, especially if we don't think they have a strong ethical commitment to the cause of workers' rights!
- eropple 6y ago
  They already effectively have this level of power, though--they choose instead to not use it. If they want to be freed from the responsibility of ethically deploying the power they have collected for themselves, they need to be made smaller.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I'm just not sure what it means to say that they effectively have this level of power. They could in principle use their market dominance to bully smaller companies into doing what they want, but that's generally considered to be unacceptable behavior - "monopolistic", it's called in many contexts. Should Microsoft impose strict labor requirements on everyone who uses Excel?
  - zepto 6y ago
    How exactly do they ‘have this level of power’? Their only power in this situation is to choose who to do business with. They can’t fine the company or revoke business licenses, as a Minstry of labor could do. Also, are you suggesting that the actual Indian government has no responsibility?
    - eropple 6y ago
      > How exactly do they ‘have this level of power’? "Behave ethically or we don't work with you" is within Apple's power. Choosing not to exert it is choosing to endorse the alternative. > Also, are you suggesting that the actual Indian government has no responsibility? Of...course not? But Apple wants to be a world-spanning power, they get to be treated like one. If they don't? There's a line once misapplied to government, about being shrunk 'til it can be drowned in the bathtub, that we can apply to all of these somehow-too-big-to-expect-moral-behavior-of corporations.
      - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        I just fundamentally disagree with this conception of power. The fact that you could in principle force someone to do what you'd like doesn't mean that you should.
- toyg 6y ago
  Lots of companies already audit their production chains, precisely in response of public pressure on the subject. Nike and football manufacturers are the most famous examples; also coffee, chocolate, and banana producers. This sort of thing, while not perfect, brought massive improvements in working condition in poor countries over the last 30 years.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    It can achieve good results, I don't deny that. Chocolate, coffee, and banana producers are in a different context. If you want to stop child labor on the chocolate farms, there's currently no choice but to have Nestle and Hershey do it, because the governments in Ghana and Cote D'Ivoire either can't or won't enforce their own laws on the topic.
    - toyg 6y ago
      The various Asian governments involved into tech production chains know what goes down in each and every factory. They know workers exploitation is massive, and they don’t care.

gruez 6y ago

>and their ability to audit manufacturers is much different from your ability to audit a contractor. Apple could audit them, but is it common practice to do so? Otherwise this seems like a case of hindsight is 20/20.

adkadskhj 6y ago
Why would they audit if they're not held accountable? This starts to become chicken and egg, it sounds like. Perhaps best to just pick the party that should be responsible and then move forward.
vorpalhex 6y ago
Yes, it's common practice to perform due diligence and regular audits on your manufacturing chains, especially ones that yearly get news articles about how many of your workers commit suicide.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

The problem is that Apple would have to establish its own private Ministry of Labour to meet this level of accountability, telling everyone exactly what their labor standards need to be and deputizing investigators to go poke around in response to any accusations. I don't think Apple should have that level of power over other companies, especially if we don't think they have a strong ethical commitment to the cause of workers' rights!

eropple 6y ago
They already effectively have this level of power, though--they choose instead to not use it. If they want to be freed from the responsibility of ethically deploying the power they have collected for themselves, they need to be made smaller.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I'm just not sure what it means to say that they effectively have this level of power. They could in principle use their market dominance to bully smaller companies into doing what they want, but that's generally considered to be unacceptable behavior - "monopolistic", it's called in many contexts. Should Microsoft impose strict labor requirements on everyone who uses Excel?
- zepto 6y ago
  How exactly do they ‘have this level of power’? Their only power in this situation is to choose who to do business with. They can’t fine the company or revoke business licenses, as a Minstry of labor could do. Also, are you suggesting that the actual Indian government has no responsibility?
  - eropple 6y ago
    > How exactly do they ‘have this level of power’? "Behave ethically or we don't work with you" is within Apple's power. Choosing not to exert it is choosing to endorse the alternative. > Also, are you suggesting that the actual Indian government has no responsibility? Of...course not? But Apple wants to be a world-spanning power, they get to be treated like one. If they don't? There's a line once misapplied to government, about being shrunk 'til it can be drowned in the bathtub, that we can apply to all of these somehow-too-big-to-expect-moral-behavior-of corporations.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      I just fundamentally disagree with this conception of power. The fact that you could in principle force someone to do what you'd like doesn't mean that you should.
toyg 6y ago
Lots of companies already audit their production chains, precisely in response of public pressure on the subject. Nike and football manufacturers are the most famous examples; also coffee, chocolate, and banana producers. This sort of thing, while not perfect, brought massive improvements in working condition in poor countries over the last 30 years.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  It can achieve good results, I don't deny that. Chocolate, coffee, and banana producers are in a different context. If you want to stop child labor on the chocolate farms, there's currently no choice but to have Nestle and Hershey do it, because the governments in Ghana and Cote D'Ivoire either can't or won't enforce their own laws on the topic.
  - toyg 6y ago
    The various Asian governments involved into tech production chains know what goes down in each and every factory. They know workers exploitation is massive, and they don’t care.