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I don't disagree, but it would be really nice if we could classify lockdowns better. The original lockdown furloughed a LOT of workers, closed schools and close

I don't disagree, but it would be really nice if we could classify lockdowns better. The original lockdown furloughed a LOT of workers, closed schools and closed virtually all shops. Today's "super tier 4+ lockdown" doesn't seem to apply to shops at all (my local shops were all open this morning, is wrapping paper really an "essential"?). Workers are mostly going in. Schools that have remained open unless they already closed and childcare is still running. They've basically just shut restaurants. That's the only change I can see... I've posted elsewhere that my cynical view of the UK gov approach is that they are talking tough and doing nothing. So maybe I'm biased? Perhaps a move transmissible strain will force real action?

lol768 6y ago
> I've posted elsewhere that my cynical view of the UK gov approach is that they are talking tough and doing nothing. So maybe I'm biased? It's felt like this with all of the tiers to be honest. They just don't go far enough and the populace is fed up with taking much heed of the rules too. The November "lockdown" felt very, very different to March when the roads etc were quiet - and it actually felt like people were taking this seriously.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  I have to be careful I don't wander into conspiracy theories but... I'm fed up because so many people flout the rules with no consequences. I suspect that the lack of consequences is intentional. If everyone flours the rules, the economic hit will be smaller and Bojo can claim he did something and its not his fault no one listened. The government have created a situation where the only logical action for normal people is business as usual, that means large excess deaths, and the government has plausible deniability. Whoops. /RantAndParanoia
  - iso1631 6y ago
    > I'm fed up because so many people flout the rules with no consequences. Been that way since Barnard's Castle. The latest decision that says MPs can see their siblings for Christmas Dinner on the 25th, but a Nurse working on the 25th can't see their parent with terminal cancer for dinner on the 26th, will hopefully be ignored.
    - londons_explore 6y ago
      What's especially funny is the latest Tier 4 Health Protection legislation has a specific exception for groups meeting in the grounds of castles... I can't believe it hasn't made headlines yet...
      - switch007 6y ago
        I think it’s existed longer? I remember reading some legislation during the November lockdown thinking that the Gov is trolling us.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
    > If everyone flours the rules, the economic hit will be smaller Only assuming that there's no economic hit to a rampant pandemic spreading death, hospitalisation and illness. Which is a barking mad assumption. It never was "illness vs economy" you either have both good, or you have neither good. They can't be separated.
    - konjin 6y ago
      The people dying from the virus are the old, sick and fat. Not a population that adds much to the economy. Depending on long term health effects if covid runs wild you can see as many benefits to average people at the end of it as you did after the black death.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        > The people dying from the virus are the old, sick and fat. It's not that simple. It's never that simple: i.e. you have simplified to the point of being flat wrong. > Depending on long term health effects if covid runs wild you can see as many benefits to average people at the end of it as you did after the black death I don't know what you mean there, for one thing prevalent Long COVID is really not going to be net benefit, for another you should perhaps rethink your economic argument for genocide / decimation. And your assumption about who is "in groups" / "average people" vs out groups. Your whole line of thinking is lacking in both logic and human decency.
        konjin 6y ago
        >I don't know what you mean And yet that didn't stop you from moralizing.
        SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        And you haven't yet started thinking in moral ways, but also your nihilistic desire has stopped you from seeing the logical truth: There are countries that both have the COVID virus under control and also have their economy back on track; and there are countries that have achieved neither. There is no "one or the other". It is "control the virus and benefit economically, or get neither benefit".
- simonbarker87 6y ago
  There was a decent drop in cases in November from what I can see. You’re right though, the first lock down felt very different. Sadly the rules are laxer than they should be but the government can’t enforce the rules effectively so are putting in enough grey-area that people can sort of decide for themselves. Sadly people are very short term focussed and unable to make the most of the situation and instead complain and go about their normal lives with just enough changes that they “feel like they’re doing their bit”. I love the gym but the move to “keep gyms open” was the best example of people not really getting it and being sad that their toys had been taken away. The moto in our hose at the moment is “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”
  - sgt101 6y ago
    People are very short term focused on things like; not losing their houses, not losing their businesses, maintaining their families, maintaining their mental health, looking after children. I don't know your situation, but I have lived a very isolated existance for the last 9 months because I am able to. MANY people I know are not in this position.
    - bealesd 6y ago
      Couldn't agree more. People who have already isolated in previous lockdowns, and lost income, probably can't afford to play it safe. Expecially if they percieve the risk of Covid to be less than the financial risk of playing it safe.
    - simonbarker87 6y ago
      I wasn’t referring to things people HAVE to do to survive - I’m talking about stuff they don’t have to do but want to do because they “just want to be back to normal”
- sgt101 6y ago
  Schools were still open, and building sites - which made a very significant difference to movement and traffic. However, if you look at the graphs the dynamic of virus growth did seem to be significantly changed by the intervention.
detritus 6y ago
On my walk to work this morning, I detoured down a local main street, curious to see what shops were considering themselves 'essential' and remaining open. Apparently this time around, travel agents and jewellery sellers have added themselves to the list, with a few barbers clearly operating illicitly behind half-drawn shutters. I was bemused by the very chi-chi local middle class deli near my home insisting they'd be staying open when I enquired on Saturday evening. I mean, sure they sell food, but really - I'm unsure how vital to survival artisanal cheese and pasta is! Bluntly, without the sincere threat of fines or whatever, no action will be taken. UK-dwellers' sense of entitlement to 'freedoms' seems drastically diluted compared to what I witnessed on the continent a few months back, when I was able. We deserve everything we get. - ed, whups - clearly I meant something like 'drastically inflated', not 'diluted'.
- jkinudsjknds 6y ago
  I don't know if I agree that a restaurant selling artisinal cheeses should be held to different standards than the lowest common denominator of nutrient gruel restauranteers.
- adwww 6y ago
  Re the deli and other quasi essential shops, it would seem unfair if they closed when you can still buy your fancy cheese and olives in a supermarket.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    I don't know why you expect it to be fair. The policy needs to be effective first and foremost. Schemes like furlough are there to support people who are most affected.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    The issue isn't really whether that shop is essential. The issue is that the greeting card store next door is also open, because they've decided they're essential. And none of these stores (including the super market) is enforcing mask requirements because none of the others are and they don't want to be the only one. In 1000 little steps you are suddenly miles away from a real lockdown. You're basically BAU, but the pub is shut ever other week (unless you buy a scotch egg in which case it is also essential). I don't care if people are eating gourmet olives. But we need to realise that making excuses for doing nothing is still doing nothing.
oli5679 6y ago
Citymapper mobility index is quite interesting for quantifying level of lockdown. https://citymapper.com/cmi/london https://citymapper.com/cmi/london
flukus 6y ago
I feel like a lockdown rating system to compare what various countries and states are doing would be helpful to those outside. Something like +1 for closed retail, +1 for closed schools, +3 when outdoor exercise isn't allowed, +0.5 for recommending WFH, etc. So many times you hear on the news that x is in lockdown when they really aren't.
mercer 6y ago
As a programmer / software engineer, I've found that I often look for equivalency with policy and whatnot, because it seems like there are lots of similarities. The impression that I get from my country (The Netherlands) is that we are doing a bit better than the UK for reasons that nobody quite understands yet. The best I can guess is that we ultimately make 'bigger' choices comparatively, even though compared to many other EU countries we're not doing particularly well despite being one of the richer ones. The way I see it, our country is run by technocrats who are faced with something very different and new. Like with projects I've worked on as a programmer, the best solution often involved going way off course. And like with projects I've worked on, this usually didn't happen. Solutions were conservative, even if something more drastic seemed prudent to almost everyone involved. It's really fucking hard to rewrite some of the core code. So instead we address things further away from that core with all sorts of special cases. If anything, the pandemic has shown that our current way of doing things isn't quite equipped to deal with big upsets, and considering the future this is something we should probably prioritize dealing with somehow.

lol768 6y ago

> I've posted elsewhere that my cynical view of the UK gov approach is that they are talking tough and doing nothing. So maybe I'm biased? It's felt like this with all of the tiers to be honest. They just don't go far enough and the populace is fed up with taking much heed of the rules too. The November "lockdown" felt very, very different to March when the roads etc were quiet - and it actually felt like people were taking this seriously.

LatteLazy 6y ago
I have to be careful I don't wander into conspiracy theories but... I'm fed up because so many people flout the rules with no consequences. I suspect that the lack of consequences is intentional. If everyone flours the rules, the economic hit will be smaller and Bojo can claim he did something and its not his fault no one listened. The government have created a situation where the only logical action for normal people is business as usual, that means large excess deaths, and the government has plausible deniability. Whoops. /RantAndParanoia
- iso1631 6y ago
  > I'm fed up because so many people flout the rules with no consequences. Been that way since Barnard's Castle. The latest decision that says MPs can see their siblings for Christmas Dinner on the 25th, but a Nurse working on the 25th can't see their parent with terminal cancer for dinner on the 26th, will hopefully be ignored.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    What's especially funny is the latest Tier 4 Health Protection legislation has a specific exception for groups meeting in the grounds of castles... I can't believe it hasn't made headlines yet...
    - switch007 6y ago
      I think it’s existed longer? I remember reading some legislation during the November lockdown thinking that the Gov is trolling us.
- SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
  > If everyone flours the rules, the economic hit will be smaller Only assuming that there's no economic hit to a rampant pandemic spreading death, hospitalisation and illness. Which is a barking mad assumption. It never was "illness vs economy" you either have both good, or you have neither good. They can't be separated.
  - konjin 6y ago
    The people dying from the virus are the old, sick and fat. Not a population that adds much to the economy. Depending on long term health effects if covid runs wild you can see as many benefits to average people at the end of it as you did after the black death.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
      > The people dying from the virus are the old, sick and fat. It's not that simple. It's never that simple: i.e. you have simplified to the point of being flat wrong. > Depending on long term health effects if covid runs wild you can see as many benefits to average people at the end of it as you did after the black death I don't know what you mean there, for one thing prevalent Long COVID is really not going to be net benefit, for another you should perhaps rethink your economic argument for genocide / decimation. And your assumption about who is "in groups" / "average people" vs out groups. Your whole line of thinking is lacking in both logic and human decency.
      - konjin 6y ago
        >I don't know what you mean And yet that didn't stop you from moralizing.
        SideburnsOfDoom 6y ago
        And you haven't yet started thinking in moral ways, but also your nihilistic desire has stopped you from seeing the logical truth: There are countries that both have the COVID virus under control and also have their economy back on track; and there are countries that have achieved neither. There is no "one or the other". It is "control the virus and benefit economically, or get neither benefit".
simonbarker87 6y ago
There was a decent drop in cases in November from what I can see. You’re right though, the first lock down felt very different. Sadly the rules are laxer than they should be but the government can’t enforce the rules effectively so are putting in enough grey-area that people can sort of decide for themselves. Sadly people are very short term focussed and unable to make the most of the situation and instead complain and go about their normal lives with just enough changes that they “feel like they’re doing their bit”. I love the gym but the move to “keep gyms open” was the best example of people not really getting it and being sad that their toys had been taken away. The moto in our hose at the moment is “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”
- sgt101 6y ago
  People are very short term focused on things like; not losing their houses, not losing their businesses, maintaining their families, maintaining their mental health, looking after children. I don't know your situation, but I have lived a very isolated existance for the last 9 months because I am able to. MANY people I know are not in this position.
  - bealesd 6y ago
    Couldn't agree more. People who have already isolated in previous lockdowns, and lost income, probably can't afford to play it safe. Expecially if they percieve the risk of Covid to be less than the financial risk of playing it safe.
  - simonbarker87 6y ago
    I wasn’t referring to things people HAVE to do to survive - I’m talking about stuff they don’t have to do but want to do because they “just want to be back to normal”
sgt101 6y ago
Schools were still open, and building sites - which made a very significant difference to movement and traffic. However, if you look at the graphs the dynamic of virus growth did seem to be significantly changed by the intervention.

detritus 6y ago

On my walk to work this morning, I detoured down a local main street, curious to see what shops were considering themselves 'essential' and remaining open. Apparently this time around, travel agents and jewellery sellers have added themselves to the list, with a few barbers clearly operating illicitly behind half-drawn shutters. I was bemused by the very chi-chi local middle class deli near my home insisting they'd be staying open when I enquired on Saturday evening. I mean, sure they sell food, but really - I'm unsure how vital to survival artisanal cheese and pasta is! Bluntly, without the sincere threat of fines or whatever, no action will be taken. UK-dwellers' sense of entitlement to 'freedoms' seems drastically diluted compared to what I witnessed on the continent a few months back, when I was able. We deserve everything we get. - ed, whups - clearly I meant something like 'drastically inflated', not 'diluted'.

jkinudsjknds 6y ago
I don't know if I agree that a restaurant selling artisinal cheeses should be held to different standards than the lowest common denominator of nutrient gruel restauranteers.
adwww 6y ago
Re the deli and other quasi essential shops, it would seem unfair if they closed when you can still buy your fancy cheese and olives in a supermarket.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I don't know why you expect it to be fair. The policy needs to be effective first and foremost. Schemes like furlough are there to support people who are most affected.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  The issue isn't really whether that shop is essential. The issue is that the greeting card store next door is also open, because they've decided they're essential. And none of these stores (including the super market) is enforcing mask requirements because none of the others are and they don't want to be the only one. In 1000 little steps you are suddenly miles away from a real lockdown. You're basically BAU, but the pub is shut ever other week (unless you buy a scotch egg in which case it is also essential). I don't care if people are eating gourmet olives. But we need to realise that making excuses for doing nothing is still doing nothing.

oli5679 6y ago

Citymapper mobility index is quite interesting for quantifying level of lockdown. https://citymapper.com/cmi/london https://citymapper.com/cmi/london

flukus 6y ago

I feel like a lockdown rating system to compare what various countries and states are doing would be helpful to those outside. Something like +1 for closed retail, +1 for closed schools, +3 when outdoor exercise isn't allowed, +0.5 for recommending WFH, etc. So many times you hear on the news that x is in lockdown when they really aren't.

mercer 6y ago

As a programmer / software engineer, I've found that I often look for equivalency with policy and whatnot, because it seems like there are lots of similarities. The impression that I get from my country (The Netherlands) is that we are doing a bit better than the UK for reasons that nobody quite understands yet. The best I can guess is that we ultimately make 'bigger' choices comparatively, even though compared to many other EU countries we're not doing particularly well despite being one of the richer ones. The way I see it, our country is run by technocrats who are faced with something very different and new. Like with projects I've worked on as a programmer, the best solution often involved going way off course. And like with projects I've worked on, this usually didn't happen. Solutions were conservative, even if something more drastic seemed prudent to almost everyone involved. It's really fucking hard to rewrite some of the core code. So instead we address things further away from that core with all sorts of special cases. If anything, the pandemic has shown that our current way of doing things isn't quite equipped to deal with big upsets, and considering the future this is something we should probably prioritize dealing with somehow.