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Interestingly I've made a successful career in this field in the opposite way it sounds like you did. I dropped out of college for unforseen circumstances and h

by kodah 6y ago

Interestingly I've made a successful career in this field in the opposite way it sounds like you did. I dropped out of college for unforseen circumstances and had to self-learn things like maths, data structures, and algorithms as academics routinely use these as litmus tests in interviews. My learning wasn't social. It was spent during my breaks at my dead end jobs, after work, etc. If I found a topic I didn't understand there was no tutoring, professor to reexplain, or even friends to ask (for a long time I didn't know many people in this industry) The result is that I learn new things quite easily, I can usually distill topics down easily for folks or represent them in a multitude of ways, I'm unafraid of failure, and I don't spend my workdays socializing. I still enjoy socializing, just not at work. This is why meetings at companies seem so frivolous. What could be communicated in an email, slack message, or hallway conversation is left to a meeting and I often wondered if it's just because these folks want free lunch and some socialization.

emteycz 6y ago
I had the same experience. Exactly the same thoughts about endless meetings about stuff that can be easily sent in a message...
- minot 6y ago
  Just playing the devil’s advocate here based on the top comment but what do we really mean when we say this meeting could be an email? Perhaps, the meeting isn’t interactive enough? Why have a meeting at all if not everyone in the meeting is providing input/asking questions? If the topic is already done and decided and the chapter is closed, I agree it could be an email to a list and you can reach out to the presenter with questions. Things like when a boss calls a meeting to say we are working from home until further notice and nobody is allowed to talk. But if we allow people to raise their hand and ask questions and things can change based on participant input then maybe a meeting is warranted? Just thinking out loud...
  - thrower123 6y ago
    It generally means that all of the signal amidst the noise and confusion that took up 30 minutes to an hour, multiplied across all the participants, could have been distilled down into 3-5 bullet points. Most meetings are held to transfer information, in the most lossy format possible.
    - abhinav22 6y ago
      Is it though? It may be lossy to you because you are better and absorbing information through other means, however my point is that the social aspect is important for many to absorb information, even though it looks inefficient. For example, many people are sheep who follow consensus —- meetings give an opportunity for them to establish consensus and hence accept and absorb it. Note I am playing devils advocate here, I hate meetings but I think I get their role now
      - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
        I think bosses like meetings because they're not as interested, sometimes, in people following the edicts as they are in people doing as _they_ say. It's important for them to be the one telling you and you having to obey. If you just did what an email says then that's just working for the business; the machine is working. If you attend a meeting then, it appears at least, the boss is the one who controls you rather than your actions being directed to the business needs you're [apparently] working for the boss. They say jump, you say how high. Maybe it's minor megalomania. IME that's another reason for meetings.
        F_J_H 6y ago
        Curious, are you a boss, or have you ever been?
        watwut 6y ago
        Have you ever worked with humans? Cause I guarantee you that if you attempt to communicate via one way email only, your chance for failure will go super high. You will be unlikely to succeed.
abhinav22 6y ago
But I think you are of well above average intelligence and also more suited to the study methods you described. Most people I think want to learn via social environments, if you try and see from their perspective it will make your meetings go smoother IMO - think that they struggle to absorb information without the socialization aspect, and then you will start to realize the importance of some of these social constructs like meetings and their place in learning.
folkhack 6y ago
> I often wondered if it's just because these folks want free lunch and some socialization. In over 50% of the careers I have had in the US I can honestly say that it was more about the ceremony of "work" that it was ever about the work. So much of this is the middle-management dilemma where as a producer/IC I find myself more worried about the outward appearance of my work vs. the actual substance of it. > I don't spend my workdays socializing I'd advise against this in most places. I've done the whole "work not socialize" thing and it comes up in 1:1's as anti-social behavior. I'm not saying I disagree with you _at all_ but I've learned to go through the motions and begrudgingly participate in "dev beers" at 2:30pm on a Friday, or Go-karting, or the lavish meals... I've had to go to dance clubs for my job, I've been pressured to go to strip clubs (never went), I've been pushed to perform for talent shows... It infuriates me. It makes me mad enough to punch a wall. I am here to work. My culture is work. Let me work. I am a god-damned engineer - let me perform the work I am paid to do, then let me go home afterward... Socializing is largely the new American work culture. It's pathetic, and it's a bubble that will pop. We didn't get to the god-damned moon knocking off at 2:30pm on a Friday for "dev beers"... =| --- Also, as a drop-out I totally feel you. Self-learning was the only way to getting a successful career after a very toxic "education" experience I went through in the middle-of-nowhere Iowa. I legitimately do not know if I would be OK if it wasn't for the internet. It allowed me to self-learn whenever I could, and allowed me a platform/audience to hone skills.
- kodah 6y ago
  > I'd advise against this in most places. I've done the whole "work not socialize" thing and it comes up in 1:1's as anti-social behavior. Same. I've had managers in the past express this in different ways. Eventually I learned to just be present, smile, and crack some jokes. Usually that affords me the ability to say my dog needs me, or something. > Self-learning was the only way to getting a successful career after a very toxic "education" experience I went through in the middle-of-nowhere Iowa. Mine was a private school. Interestingly the content was great. The methodology for teaching was not so much. > I legitimately do not know if I would be OK if it wasn't for the internet. It allowed me to self-learn whenever I could, and allowed me a platform/audience to hone skills. I thank my lucky stars the internet and IRC knew what to do with me. Thanks for sharing, we should definitely get weekend-citizen-beers sometime.
danans 6y ago
> This is why meetings at companies seem so frivolous. What could be communicated in an email, slack message, or hallway conversation is left to a meeting and I often wondered if it's just because these folks want free lunch and some socialization. One thing that remote work during the pandemic has demonstrated to me is the line at which chat rooms lose their efficacy as a tool for collaborative problem solving. Many times a week I need to upgrade a conversation happening over chat to a video conversation, simply because The linearity of chat sessions makes it quite difficult to communicate more complex concepts, especially causality. Something about spoken language allows us to communicate more dimension. Furthermore, regularly scheduled face-to-face meetings over video are the only times I get to hear about work by members of my team whose day-to-day tasks do not overlap with mine. It's not just for the purposes of socialization - though socialization is very important in any team - but rather very frequently in meetings I learn about something that someone else is working on that is consequential to my own work.

by kodah 6y ago

emteycz 6y ago

I had the same experience. Exactly the same thoughts about endless meetings about stuff that can be easily sent in a message...

minot 6y ago
Just playing the devil’s advocate here based on the top comment but what do we really mean when we say this meeting could be an email? Perhaps, the meeting isn’t interactive enough? Why have a meeting at all if not everyone in the meeting is providing input/asking questions? If the topic is already done and decided and the chapter is closed, I agree it could be an email to a list and you can reach out to the presenter with questions. Things like when a boss calls a meeting to say we are working from home until further notice and nobody is allowed to talk. But if we allow people to raise their hand and ask questions and things can change based on participant input then maybe a meeting is warranted? Just thinking out loud...
- thrower123 6y ago
  It generally means that all of the signal amidst the noise and confusion that took up 30 minutes to an hour, multiplied across all the participants, could have been distilled down into 3-5 bullet points. Most meetings are held to transfer information, in the most lossy format possible.
  - abhinav22 6y ago
    Is it though? It may be lossy to you because you are better and absorbing information through other means, however my point is that the social aspect is important for many to absorb information, even though it looks inefficient. For example, many people are sheep who follow consensus —- meetings give an opportunity for them to establish consensus and hence accept and absorb it. Note I am playing devils advocate here, I hate meetings but I think I get their role now
    - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
      I think bosses like meetings because they're not as interested, sometimes, in people following the edicts as they are in people doing as _they_ say. It's important for them to be the one telling you and you having to obey. If you just did what an email says then that's just working for the business; the machine is working. If you attend a meeting then, it appears at least, the boss is the one who controls you rather than your actions being directed to the business needs you're [apparently] working for the boss. They say jump, you say how high. Maybe it's minor megalomania. IME that's another reason for meetings.
      - F_J_H 6y ago
        Curious, are you a boss, or have you ever been?
      - watwut 6y ago
        Have you ever worked with humans? Cause I guarantee you that if you attempt to communicate via one way email only, your chance for failure will go super high. You will be unlikely to succeed.

abhinav22 6y ago

But I think you are of well above average intelligence and also more suited to the study methods you described. Most people I think want to learn via social environments, if you try and see from their perspective it will make your meetings go smoother IMO - think that they struggle to absorb information without the socialization aspect, and then you will start to realize the importance of some of these social constructs like meetings and their place in learning.

folkhack 6y ago

> I often wondered if it's just because these folks want free lunch and some socialization. In over 50% of the careers I have had in the US I can honestly say that it was more about the ceremony of "work" that it was ever about the work. So much of this is the middle-management dilemma where as a producer/IC I find myself more worried about the outward appearance of my work vs. the actual substance of it. > I don't spend my workdays socializing I'd advise against this in most places. I've done the whole "work not socialize" thing and it comes up in 1:1's as anti-social behavior. I'm not saying I disagree with you _at all_ but I've learned to go through the motions and begrudgingly participate in "dev beers" at 2:30pm on a Friday, or Go-karting, or the lavish meals... I've had to go to dance clubs for my job, I've been pressured to go to strip clubs (never went), I've been pushed to perform for talent shows... It infuriates me. It makes me mad enough to punch a wall. I am here to work. My culture is work. Let me work. I am a god-damned engineer - let me perform the work I am paid to do, then let me go home afterward... Socializing is largely the new American work culture. It's pathetic, and it's a bubble that will pop. We didn't get to the god-damned moon knocking off at 2:30pm on a Friday for "dev beers"... =| --- Also, as a drop-out I totally feel you. Self-learning was the only way to getting a successful career after a very toxic "education" experience I went through in the middle-of-nowhere Iowa. I legitimately do not know if I would be OK if it wasn't for the internet. It allowed me to self-learn whenever I could, and allowed me a platform/audience to hone skills.

kodah 6y ago
> I'd advise against this in most places. I've done the whole "work not socialize" thing and it comes up in 1:1's as anti-social behavior. Same. I've had managers in the past express this in different ways. Eventually I learned to just be present, smile, and crack some jokes. Usually that affords me the ability to say my dog needs me, or something. > Self-learning was the only way to getting a successful career after a very toxic "education" experience I went through in the middle-of-nowhere Iowa. Mine was a private school. Interestingly the content was great. The methodology for teaching was not so much. > I legitimately do not know if I would be OK if it wasn't for the internet. It allowed me to self-learn whenever I could, and allowed me a platform/audience to hone skills. I thank my lucky stars the internet and IRC knew what to do with me. Thanks for sharing, we should definitely get weekend-citizen-beers sometime.

danans 6y ago

> This is why meetings at companies seem so frivolous. What could be communicated in an email, slack message, or hallway conversation is left to a meeting and I often wondered if it's just because these folks want free lunch and some socialization. One thing that remote work during the pandemic has demonstrated to me is the line at which chat rooms lose their efficacy as a tool for collaborative problem solving. Many times a week I need to upgrade a conversation happening over chat to a video conversation, simply because The linearity of chat sessions makes it quite difficult to communicate more complex concepts, especially causality. Something about spoken language allows us to communicate more dimension. Furthermore, regularly scheduled face-to-face meetings over video are the only times I get to hear about work by members of my team whose day-to-day tasks do not overlap with mine. It's not just for the purposes of socialization - though socialization is very important in any team - but rather very frequently in meetings I learn about something that someone else is working on that is consequential to my own work.