5 ms·

in theory this looks good. reality is a bit different. I constantly have problems with my left and right neighbor (middle of pandemic and this ahole is doing a

by atum47 6y ago

in theory this looks good. reality is a bit different. I constantly have problems with my left and right neighbor (middle of pandemic and this ahole is doing a barbecue with loud music since yesterday) about their lack of consideration (this in my parents house, where I am right now). In my apartment is no different... loud music, stumping on the floor... that kind of problem you have on a building. my father have a huge heart and does all kinds of good things for people, and I watch him getting screw over by the same people he helps (this includes people he hire to work for his small company). each passing day I feel more and more inclined to buy me a piece of land with no one around it, build a small house in the center of it and never interact with this kind of people forever.

agumonkey 6y ago
Yeah being kind is more a weird tug of war. We really need lessons in how to ensure our own well being in a social context. Now some would summarize it as: be as kind to you as you're to others. I, like your father, has a weird tendency to do everything for free.. but it's unhealthy and I suffer. But I can't really blame others for that. Being strong and balanced.. a healthy dose of selfishness (kinda like a kid)
bumby 6y ago
I would take a slightly different perspective. I think much of the benefit of volunteering etc. as spoke about in the article is from the feeling of "connectedness". It's not that being generous is in-and-of-itself beneficial, but that it helps connect to other humans. From the article: "Humans are extremely social, we have better health when we are interconnected, and part of being interconnected is giving" Being generous and resenting it or moving away from people would probably be antithetical to being connected. Being taken advantage of makes one feel less connected, which might be what you're experiencing. For a good, short read related to this I'd suggest Sebastian Junger's book Tribe
ohhhhhh 6y ago
do you see how the negative attitude you carry is eating you alive? be more like your dad
- dang 6y ago
  That crosses into personal attack, which is not an effective way to advocate for kindness, and also not allowed on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
starkd 6y ago
That sentiment is quite understandable. But I think the health benefits of this outlook is more about being able to let go of these hang-ups and injustices that you attribute to other people. Victim-hood is mostly a state of mind. There reaches a point where you choose to stay there.
- kulig 6y ago
  Lol no it isnt. Way to blame the victim. People who play loud music in residential areas should go to prison for disturbing the lives of others.
abtom 6y ago
This is accurate. More often than not, trying to do something good for others will end up making you feel like an idiot. For the person on the receiving end, you are a jackpot. Instead of being shown gratitude, you're likely to be exploited. But then again, would it really be a genuine gesture on the giver's end if they were to filter based on the receiver's character or whether they will be grateful for it? The positivity from you is likely to be absorbed by the negativity, never to be seen again, instead of snowballing into a boulder of positivity as you'd hoped. I feel the only answer is to be an endless source of positivity. In that case you're not worried whether the drops of positivity from you end up somewhere they're appreciated or not. The negativity sponges might suck you dry, so it's not for everyone. For most of us the answer might be to constrain our positivity outlets into safer, more controllable spaces (volunteering for an organization, etc.) where it is less likely that we might feel anything negative for our efforts.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  Okay, there is a major definition problem here. Kindness can and should come with boundaries. No one is entitled to your time or energy. Choosing to spend that energy on another person, without thought of reward, is a form of kindness. We can and probably should be polite to people by default. That is a way of showing kindness. If the other person decides to be a blackhole, leave them. If they are harming someone, you are free to (and probably should) warn other people. Kindness does not require you let people take advantage of you.
- adamsea 6y ago
  > This is accurate. More often than not, trying to do something good for others will end up making you feel like an idiot. For the person on the receiving end, you are a jackpot. Instead of being shown gratitude, you're likely to be exploited. Helping others doesn’t mean you have to set yourself up to be a sucker. Which you kinda point out when you about volunteering. But IMHO in any space our own judgement is still required and essential.
wolverine876 6y ago
It's not going to completely solve every problem - that's a pretty high standard! Maybe you could ask your father how he feels about it. I see and experience the same things you do, and I choose compassion and kindness (my mantra with strangers is: trust, care, help). I can't change other people or the world, but I do choose how I respond to them. I can defy the evil, unhappiness and despair in the world. What I've learned is that it is so much better for me, and for the other people, and for the situation - it doesn't solve every problem, it's not the entire solution, it doesn't even work every time, but it moves the needle; perhaps most importantly, I think it sets an example and inspires others - imagine a world without the compassionate people. Compassion is armor: When people act like jerks, usually it's because they have their own problems, their are overwhelmed, they are afraid, etc. You and I act like jerks too. Have compassion on them and on yourself - life is hard. > never interact with this kind of people forever Whatever kind they are, they are everywhere. We all need to find our peace of mind, but at the same time I don't want to withdraw: What am I living for? To avoid? More people are more opportunities to live.
ABCLAW 6y ago
Being helpful and kind to others also requires that you be kind to yourself. You can only give when it is healthy to do so. Some people will be narcissists, self involved, and mean. Some people will try to take advantage of you. That's okay; You cut them out of your circles and move on. Being kind and pruning your social circles to those who are kind in return is like tending a garden. It isn't 'unkind' to weed the place a bit from time to time to make an environment that you enjoy being in.
- adamsea 6y ago
  > Being helpful and kind to others also requires that you be kind to yourself. You can only give when it is healthy to do so. Agreed. We all deserve the same fundamental measure of respect. It’s equally important to be kind to myself and to others. The two are the same thing in disguise. It can take reflection to parse out each situation, but if a “helping” act of mine is actually damaging to me in a way I resent or would prefer to avoid, then am I really being kind to the other person? I’d argue that often I’m actually acting out of an unhealthy impulse of guilt, some sense of social-obligation, self-identity, etc, which is really just about myself. Sometimes helping another person - even if they want said help - actually doesn’t help them at all, and that’s not really kindness in my opinion. It requires judgement. True kindness includes more than the “soft and mushy” feelings a lot of us look on with suspicion. Authentic kindness and care can be hard as fuck because it means saying no or not helping someone when your natural impulse is to do so. See: parenting, family members/friends with addictions, letting go an employee who’s well-intentioned, breaking up with someone who’s nice, etc. IMHO Buddhist thought is a great tool for thinking about this kind of stuff.
yudlejoza 6y ago
There's no recovery from BNS (bad neighbor situation) in my opinion. I see that as a point of no return. The only sane outcome is, one of the two parties bailing out. BNS doesn't mean it only happens between neighbors, just that that's what it feels like even if it happens between two parties that are not necessarily neighbors, e.g., two coworkers, two classmates, two CEOs of rival corporations. The list is endless. BNS is the bane of my existence. I'd do anything to have a life where I'm not in a BNS match with anyone.
- atum47 6y ago
  I was living in a big city when the lockdown was enforced by the company I was working at (at the time) so I decided to spend that time with my parents (cause I could at least help them with anything). I came home to discover the neighbor was fabricating furniture in his backyard (both of our houses have a large backyard). He would work until midnight sometimes, with no acoustic treatment on his improvised factory. I went by his house and talk to him. Explained that I was also working at home and the noise was too much. Long story short, I had to call city hall to resolve the situation. This is the same ahole I mentioned. I'm a pretty reasonable guy. I can put myself in others shoes. But when I notice that people don't retribute, I tend to act. My father put up with a lot of things (trying to be a better person) that I don't.
danenania 6y ago
This has been studied in game theory terms. The best strategy seems to be to give people the benefit of the doubt initially, being kind and altruistic without reservation. But as soon as they don’t respond in kind, you update your strategy immediately and stop extending any generosity beyond baseline courtesy. The ball is in their court now. If they switch from selfishness to altruism, then you can match them. Otherwise, don’t let yourself be exploited. I’ve found this approach has simplified many social decisions for me. Even things like whether to say hi to a neighbor passing on the sidewalk. I used to not always be sure of the best way to handle these situations. If you give a hearty greeting and are ignored, you feel lame and rejected. If you ignore them and it turns out they are friendly, they could see you as unfriendly, or they might also be on the fence, waiting to see what you do, and by ignoring them you miss out on establishing a friendship that could be valuable to both of you in the long run. Now it’s easy: I say hi the first time I see someone and treat them warmly. If they aren’t friendly back, I don’t worry about it. I simply ignore them now unless they make an effort to change the dynamic (happens more than you might think, actually). This way you don’t miss out on the good people, don’t sweat the bad/manipulative people, and remain flexible in case someone was just feeling shy or having a bad day. Game theory ftw!
- layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
  (This strategy is called “tit for tat”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat )
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  I don't have a link now, but if there is a chance for miscommunication, the good strategy becomes more "forgiving". So you can keep being cooperative and kind for more than one iterations to be sure they really want to defect. Then you can defect too, until they cooperate.
  - m16ghost 6y ago
    The Evolution of Trust[0] is a fun walkthrough of those game theory strategies. It adds the twist of miscommunication towards the end. [0]https://ncase.me/trust/ https://ncase.me/trust/
Ozzie_osman 6y ago
Being kind doesn't mean being a chump. Be slightly more kind to others than they are to you, but when they don't reciprocate, draw strict boundaries. Honestly learning to set boundaries was game-changing for my emotional health and my relationships.
mancerayder 6y ago
As a resident in NY during the pandemic, everything that you would think would cause people to cling together and bond in common cause during a difficult time period if you were an optimist, actually caused an increase of rudeness, hostility, annoyance, and battle for resources. From sidewalk space to aggressive driving to competition in apartment buildings for rare gym reservations or even elevator space, people are awful. Ready for a move to a house of my own without audible neighbors or selfish and uncompromising attitudes. Struggle for scarce resources triggers ancient and primitive defensive attitudes. Either that or people in the northeastern cities are rude.

by atum47 6y ago

agumonkey 6y ago

Yeah being kind is more a weird tug of war. We really need lessons in how to ensure our own well being in a social context. Now some would summarize it as: be as kind to you as you're to others. I, like your father, has a weird tendency to do everything for free.. but it's unhealthy and I suffer. But I can't really blame others for that. Being strong and balanced.. a healthy dose of selfishness (kinda like a kid)

bumby 6y ago

I would take a slightly different perspective. I think much of the benefit of volunteering etc. as spoke about in the article is from the feeling of "connectedness". It's not that being generous is in-and-of-itself beneficial, but that it helps connect to other humans. From the article: "Humans are extremely social, we have better health when we are interconnected, and part of being interconnected is giving" Being generous and resenting it or moving away from people would probably be antithetical to being connected. Being taken advantage of makes one feel less connected, which might be what you're experiencing. For a good, short read related to this I'd suggest Sebastian Junger's book Tribe

ohhhhhh 6y ago

do you see how the negative attitude you carry is eating you alive? be more like your dad

dang 6y ago
That crosses into personal attack, which is not an effective way to advocate for kindness, and also not allowed on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

starkd 6y ago

That sentiment is quite understandable. But I think the health benefits of this outlook is more about being able to let go of these hang-ups and injustices that you attribute to other people. Victim-hood is mostly a state of mind. There reaches a point where you choose to stay there.

kulig 6y ago
Lol no it isnt. Way to blame the victim. People who play loud music in residential areas should go to prison for disturbing the lives of others.

abtom 6y ago

This is accurate. More often than not, trying to do something good for others will end up making you feel like an idiot. For the person on the receiving end, you are a jackpot. Instead of being shown gratitude, you're likely to be exploited. But then again, would it really be a genuine gesture on the giver's end if they were to filter based on the receiver's character or whether they will be grateful for it? The positivity from you is likely to be absorbed by the negativity, never to be seen again, instead of snowballing into a boulder of positivity as you'd hoped. I feel the only answer is to be an endless source of positivity. In that case you're not worried whether the drops of positivity from you end up somewhere they're appreciated or not. The negativity sponges might suck you dry, so it's not for everyone. For most of us the answer might be to constrain our positivity outlets into safer, more controllable spaces (volunteering for an organization, etc.) where it is less likely that we might feel anything negative for our efforts.

kayodelycaon 6y ago
Okay, there is a major definition problem here. Kindness can and should come with boundaries. No one is entitled to your time or energy. Choosing to spend that energy on another person, without thought of reward, is a form of kindness. We can and probably should be polite to people by default. That is a way of showing kindness. If the other person decides to be a blackhole, leave them. If they are harming someone, you are free to (and probably should) warn other people. Kindness does not require you let people take advantage of you.
adamsea 6y ago
> This is accurate. More often than not, trying to do something good for others will end up making you feel like an idiot. For the person on the receiving end, you are a jackpot. Instead of being shown gratitude, you're likely to be exploited. Helping others doesn’t mean you have to set yourself up to be a sucker. Which you kinda point out when you about volunteering. But IMHO in any space our own judgement is still required and essential.

wolverine876 6y ago

It's not going to completely solve every problem - that's a pretty high standard! Maybe you could ask your father how he feels about it. I see and experience the same things you do, and I choose compassion and kindness (my mantra with strangers is: trust, care, help). I can't change other people or the world, but I do choose how I respond to them. I can defy the evil, unhappiness and despair in the world. What I've learned is that it is so much better for me, and for the other people, and for the situation - it doesn't solve every problem, it's not the entire solution, it doesn't even work every time, but it moves the needle; perhaps most importantly, I think it sets an example and inspires others - imagine a world without the compassionate people. Compassion is armor: When people act like jerks, usually it's because they have their own problems, their are overwhelmed, they are afraid, etc. You and I act like jerks too. Have compassion on them and on yourself - life is hard. > never interact with this kind of people forever Whatever kind they are, they are everywhere. We all need to find our peace of mind, but at the same time I don't want to withdraw: What am I living for? To avoid? More people are more opportunities to live.

ABCLAW 6y ago

Being helpful and kind to others also requires that you be kind to yourself. You can only give when it is healthy to do so. Some people will be narcissists, self involved, and mean. Some people will try to take advantage of you. That's okay; You cut them out of your circles and move on. Being kind and pruning your social circles to those who are kind in return is like tending a garden. It isn't 'unkind' to weed the place a bit from time to time to make an environment that you enjoy being in.

adamsea 6y ago
> Being helpful and kind to others also requires that you be kind to yourself. You can only give when it is healthy to do so. Agreed. We all deserve the same fundamental measure of respect. It’s equally important to be kind to myself and to others. The two are the same thing in disguise. It can take reflection to parse out each situation, but if a “helping” act of mine is actually damaging to me in a way I resent or would prefer to avoid, then am I really being kind to the other person? I’d argue that often I’m actually acting out of an unhealthy impulse of guilt, some sense of social-obligation, self-identity, etc, which is really just about myself. Sometimes helping another person - even if they want said help - actually doesn’t help them at all, and that’s not really kindness in my opinion. It requires judgement. True kindness includes more than the “soft and mushy” feelings a lot of us look on with suspicion. Authentic kindness and care can be hard as fuck because it means saying no or not helping someone when your natural impulse is to do so. See: parenting, family members/friends with addictions, letting go an employee who’s well-intentioned, breaking up with someone who’s nice, etc. IMHO Buddhist thought is a great tool for thinking about this kind of stuff.

yudlejoza 6y ago

There's no recovery from BNS (bad neighbor situation) in my opinion. I see that as a point of no return. The only sane outcome is, one of the two parties bailing out. BNS doesn't mean it only happens between neighbors, just that that's what it feels like even if it happens between two parties that are not necessarily neighbors, e.g., two coworkers, two classmates, two CEOs of rival corporations. The list is endless. BNS is the bane of my existence. I'd do anything to have a life where I'm not in a BNS match with anyone.

atum47 6y ago
I was living in a big city when the lockdown was enforced by the company I was working at (at the time) so I decided to spend that time with my parents (cause I could at least help them with anything). I came home to discover the neighbor was fabricating furniture in his backyard (both of our houses have a large backyard). He would work until midnight sometimes, with no acoustic treatment on his improvised factory. I went by his house and talk to him. Explained that I was also working at home and the noise was too much. Long story short, I had to call city hall to resolve the situation. This is the same ahole I mentioned. I'm a pretty reasonable guy. I can put myself in others shoes. But when I notice that people don't retribute, I tend to act. My father put up with a lot of things (trying to be a better person) that I don't.

danenania 6y ago

This has been studied in game theory terms. The best strategy seems to be to give people the benefit of the doubt initially, being kind and altruistic without reservation. But as soon as they don’t respond in kind, you update your strategy immediately and stop extending any generosity beyond baseline courtesy. The ball is in their court now. If they switch from selfishness to altruism, then you can match them. Otherwise, don’t let yourself be exploited. I’ve found this approach has simplified many social decisions for me. Even things like whether to say hi to a neighbor passing on the sidewalk. I used to not always be sure of the best way to handle these situations. If you give a hearty greeting and are ignored, you feel lame and rejected. If you ignore them and it turns out they are friendly, they could see you as unfriendly, or they might also be on the fence, waiting to see what you do, and by ignoring them you miss out on establishing a friendship that could be valuable to both of you in the long run. Now it’s easy: I say hi the first time I see someone and treat them warmly. If they aren’t friendly back, I don’t worry about it. I simply ignore them now unless they make an effort to change the dynamic (happens more than you might think, actually). This way you don’t miss out on the good people, don’t sweat the bad/manipulative people, and remain flexible in case someone was just feeling shy or having a bad day. Game theory ftw!

layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
(This strategy is called “tit for tat”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat )
bonoboTP 6y ago
I don't have a link now, but if there is a chance for miscommunication, the good strategy becomes more "forgiving". So you can keep being cooperative and kind for more than one iterations to be sure they really want to defect. Then you can defect too, until they cooperate.
- m16ghost 6y ago
  The Evolution of Trust[0] is a fun walkthrough of those game theory strategies. It adds the twist of miscommunication towards the end. [0]https://ncase.me/trust/ https://ncase.me/trust/

Ozzie_osman 6y ago

Being kind doesn't mean being a chump. Be slightly more kind to others than they are to you, but when they don't reciprocate, draw strict boundaries. Honestly learning to set boundaries was game-changing for my emotional health and my relationships.

mancerayder 6y ago

As a resident in NY during the pandemic, everything that you would think would cause people to cling together and bond in common cause during a difficult time period if you were an optimist, actually caused an increase of rudeness, hostility, annoyance, and battle for resources. From sidewalk space to aggressive driving to competition in apartment buildings for rare gym reservations or even elevator space, people are awful. Ready for a move to a house of my own without audible neighbors or selfish and uncompromising attitudes. Struggle for scarce resources triggers ancient and primitive defensive attitudes. Either that or people in the northeastern cities are rude.