8 ms·

Local governance running well, public services like cleaning, helping homeless etc, all require tax dollars. Saying "I'd pay tax if they had enough money they g

by carlio 6y ago

Local governance running well, public services like cleaning, helping homeless etc, all require tax dollars. Saying "I'd pay tax if they had enough money they get from tax to fix the problems that cause me not to want to pay tax" seems like it's a bit of a chicken-egg problem.

nthj 6y ago
This argument seems to make sense on the surface, but California already has some of the highest income taxes in the country. To make an appeal to extremes, if California had a 40% income tax they wanted to raise to 45% asking, “show me how you have demonstrated good stewardship in what you are already taking” would be, I imagine, somewhat common. Reasonable people can of course debate that percentage, and can do so today based on California already having high income taxes.
- secabeen 6y ago
  California does have high income tax, but property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation, and a recent attempt to reform those taxes failed. That leaves California 12th in state tax burden. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494 https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-bur...
  - klipt 6y ago
    Only helps if you're a homeowner. If you rent California probably has one of the highest tax burdens.
  - Natales 6y ago
    Property taxes in CA punish the newcomers and reward old money. When I bought in Mill Valley in 2001, I was literally paying 13X more taxes than my neighbor, a masseuse who inherited the property and kept the same tax rate her parents paid in the 70s. And as a very liberal town, every new tax initiative always passed, which again hit us harder. If at least Prop 13 benefits could not be passed as inheritance, that would go a long way to balance things. I'm happy I moved to WA now where my property taxes do get reassessed every year, but it balances out with no state income taxes.
  - pedrosorio 6y ago
    > property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation That's like citing the average rent in San Francisco. Great if you've been living in a rent controlled apartment for 30 years, but irrelevant if you've moved there recently.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  California’s governance with respect to property taxes is horrific and inequitable to the point that it should be illegal in many ways it has distorted the national economy in good and bad ways as folks sitting on property have turned into the 21st century version of a French aristocrat by sitting in their 50s ranch. That cohort of Californian is dying off now, and it may be better for all involved if companies pull out and disrupt the status quo. California’s incompetence shouldn’t drag down everything.
  - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
    the property tax rate is fair. unless there is a cap on speculative activity on real estate with a real interest and initiative in keeping housing prices stable, prop 13 is the untouchable third rail. just stopping foreign investment in california real estate will make an enormous difference. removing the prop 13 waiver for those who inherit property with the old tax rate will also help. with older people on the clock to die sometime within the next decade, ca will see a flood of plumped up property taxes when the homes change hands. but just the two measures is a good short term relief. million dollar homes are bought sight unseen and then flipped for 40-60% markup by foreign investors and people who dont even reside in california. making it a speculative rodeo circus. let the Gov. fix THAT first.
    - Spooky23 6y ago
      Valuation based assessment is a core principle of property taxes. The prop 13 stuff is gross and I’m always surprised that it was never shot down in the Supreme Court. California can be California, but the problem is more than some junk ranch house is selling for $3M. It’s bullshit that the whole country is essentially held hostage by “too big to fail” California mortgages that homeowners cab just walk away from.
      - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
        Actually property taxes are ad valorem. [..] An ad valorem tax is a tax whose amount is based on the value of a transaction or of property. It is typically imposed at the time of a transaction, as in the case of a sales tax or value-added tax. - Wikipedia[..] Property taxes are paid EVERY year. What asset do you own that you keep on paying sales tax on? The real estate market should be stable and for free market forces to aid that, we have to make many more fundamental changes before even touching prop 13. 1. Starting with children and grandchildren who inherit property not benefiting from the prop 13. 2. Secondly, a moratorium on all foreign investments in the real estate market in California. 3. A tiered tax rate for homes left empty while enjoying prop 13 benefits. Additionally, the primary home can also be entirely tax free wrt recurring annual taxes. California’s problem is not low taxation. Our problem is our state budget and gross mismanagement of our tax dollars by our elected representatives. I would like to see how they manage our current levies and with more transparency before we hand over a bigger portion of our pay check. If people don’t have disposable income to spend, the economy will crumble and collapse.
- blululu 6y ago
  California also has one of the lowest property taxes in the country. Income tax is high and so is sales tax but to look at a single form of taxation and conclude that taxes are high in general is a non sequitur. Texas, for instance, has high property tax but it would not be considered a high tax state for this reason alone. At the end of the day it costs a certain amount to run a modern government, the question is simply a matter of what taxes are the most fair way to finance it. Note: California’s government probably could be leaner, but there is also broad bipartisan support for more prisons, police and firefighters. The California republican party’s focus on cutting spending overlooks the deeper problem that we aren’t getting good value on a lot of the spending and budget cuts only exasperate the problem. More meaningful institutional reforms are needed.
gfxgirl 6y ago
San Francisco spends $50k per homeless person. The problem doesn't seem like it's money
- sharpneli 6y ago
  Really? That’s more money than we use for the unemployed here in Finland. And they get healthcare, food and house. SF is expensive for sure, but that expensive? Where is the money going to?
  - enahs-sf 6y ago
    a Rube Goldberg machine of non-profits and inefficient, non-transparent spending leaving little to help the plight of the less fortunate.
  - qznc 6y ago
    I remember an article from somewhere in the valley that they considered to support families in need with some money for housing. Family in need was defined as yearly household income below $250,000.
    - runamok 6y ago
      It's probably this you are thinking of: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto-considers-subsidized-housing-for-salary-up-to-250k-idUSKCN0WQ0CB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto... It sounds dumb but IIRC it's an attempt to have teachers and police and city employees able to live there...
  - rufus_foreman 6y ago
    Follow the drugs.
- Retric 6y ago
  Individual cities can’t solve national problems. Due to migration there are no great solutions at the individual city level, other than being “blessed” with an inhospitable area.
briga 6y ago
But it seems like local governance doesn't work especially well for the state as a whole. I get the impression that the state has systemic problems that no tax will fix. Local governance is a problem in the state because all the wealthy cities do everything they can and use all their tax dollars to protect their own interests, often at the expense of everyone else. Needless to say it's a very complex problem and it's unclear that just throwing more tax dollars at everything will fix every problem every time.
Reedx 6y ago
SF doubled their budget over the past 10 years, while virtually every problem has gotten worse. More money isn't always the answer. Maybe the answer lies elsewhere...
throwaway316943 6y ago
That’s not the argument. Many people are willing to pay tax if they see evidence that it is being wisely managed and is improving the quality of life. If the money is disappearing into a vacuum of corruption and inefficiency then people will wisely avoid contributing to such a needless waste.

by carlio 6y ago

nthj 6y ago

This argument seems to make sense on the surface, but California already has some of the highest income taxes in the country. To make an appeal to extremes, if California had a 40% income tax they wanted to raise to 45% asking, “show me how you have demonstrated good stewardship in what you are already taking” would be, I imagine, somewhat common. Reasonable people can of course debate that percentage, and can do so today based on California already having high income taxes.

secabeen 6y ago
California does have high income tax, but property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation, and a recent attempt to reform those taxes failed. That leaves California 12th in state tax burden. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494 https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-bur...
- klipt 6y ago
  Only helps if you're a homeowner. If you rent California probably has one of the highest tax burdens.
- Natales 6y ago
  Property taxes in CA punish the newcomers and reward old money. When I bought in Mill Valley in 2001, I was literally paying 13X more taxes than my neighbor, a masseuse who inherited the property and kept the same tax rate her parents paid in the 70s. And as a very liberal town, every new tax initiative always passed, which again hit us harder. If at least Prop 13 benefits could not be passed as inheritance, that would go a long way to balance things. I'm happy I moved to WA now where my property taxes do get reassessed every year, but it balances out with no state income taxes.
- pedrosorio 6y ago
  > property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation That's like citing the average rent in San Francisco. Great if you've been living in a rent controlled apartment for 30 years, but irrelevant if you've moved there recently.
Spooky23 6y ago
California’s governance with respect to property taxes is horrific and inequitable to the point that it should be illegal in many ways it has distorted the national economy in good and bad ways as folks sitting on property have turned into the 21st century version of a French aristocrat by sitting in their 50s ranch. That cohort of Californian is dying off now, and it may be better for all involved if companies pull out and disrupt the status quo. California’s incompetence shouldn’t drag down everything.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  the property tax rate is fair. unless there is a cap on speculative activity on real estate with a real interest and initiative in keeping housing prices stable, prop 13 is the untouchable third rail. just stopping foreign investment in california real estate will make an enormous difference. removing the prop 13 waiver for those who inherit property with the old tax rate will also help. with older people on the clock to die sometime within the next decade, ca will see a flood of plumped up property taxes when the homes change hands. but just the two measures is a good short term relief. million dollar homes are bought sight unseen and then flipped for 40-60% markup by foreign investors and people who dont even reside in california. making it a speculative rodeo circus. let the Gov. fix THAT first.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    Valuation based assessment is a core principle of property taxes. The prop 13 stuff is gross and I’m always surprised that it was never shot down in the Supreme Court. California can be California, but the problem is more than some junk ranch house is selling for $3M. It’s bullshit that the whole country is essentially held hostage by “too big to fail” California mortgages that homeowners cab just walk away from.
    - jelliclesfarm 6y ago
      Actually property taxes are ad valorem. [..] An ad valorem tax is a tax whose amount is based on the value of a transaction or of property. It is typically imposed at the time of a transaction, as in the case of a sales tax or value-added tax. - Wikipedia[..] Property taxes are paid EVERY year. What asset do you own that you keep on paying sales tax on? The real estate market should be stable and for free market forces to aid that, we have to make many more fundamental changes before even touching prop 13. 1. Starting with children and grandchildren who inherit property not benefiting from the prop 13. 2. Secondly, a moratorium on all foreign investments in the real estate market in California. 3. A tiered tax rate for homes left empty while enjoying prop 13 benefits. Additionally, the primary home can also be entirely tax free wrt recurring annual taxes. California’s problem is not low taxation. Our problem is our state budget and gross mismanagement of our tax dollars by our elected representatives. I would like to see how they manage our current levies and with more transparency before we hand over a bigger portion of our pay check. If people don’t have disposable income to spend, the economy will crumble and collapse.
blululu 6y ago
California also has one of the lowest property taxes in the country. Income tax is high and so is sales tax but to look at a single form of taxation and conclude that taxes are high in general is a non sequitur. Texas, for instance, has high property tax but it would not be considered a high tax state for this reason alone. At the end of the day it costs a certain amount to run a modern government, the question is simply a matter of what taxes are the most fair way to finance it. Note: California’s government probably could be leaner, but there is also broad bipartisan support for more prisons, police and firefighters. The California republican party’s focus on cutting spending overlooks the deeper problem that we aren’t getting good value on a lot of the spending and budget cuts only exasperate the problem. More meaningful institutional reforms are needed.

gfxgirl 6y ago

San Francisco spends $50k per homeless person. The problem doesn't seem like it's money

sharpneli 6y ago
Really? That’s more money than we use for the unemployed here in Finland. And they get healthcare, food and house. SF is expensive for sure, but that expensive? Where is the money going to?
- enahs-sf 6y ago
  a Rube Goldberg machine of non-profits and inefficient, non-transparent spending leaving little to help the plight of the less fortunate.
- qznc 6y ago
  I remember an article from somewhere in the valley that they considered to support families in need with some money for housing. Family in need was defined as yearly household income below $250,000.
  - runamok 6y ago
    It's probably this you are thinking of: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto-considers-subsidized-housing-for-salary-up-to-250k-idUSKCN0WQ0CB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto... It sounds dumb but IIRC it's an attempt to have teachers and police and city employees able to live there...
- rufus_foreman 6y ago
  Follow the drugs.
Retric 6y ago
Individual cities can’t solve national problems. Due to migration there are no great solutions at the individual city level, other than being “blessed” with an inhospitable area.

briga 6y ago

But it seems like local governance doesn't work especially well for the state as a whole. I get the impression that the state has systemic problems that no tax will fix. Local governance is a problem in the state because all the wealthy cities do everything they can and use all their tax dollars to protect their own interests, often at the expense of everyone else. Needless to say it's a very complex problem and it's unclear that just throwing more tax dollars at everything will fix every problem every time.

Reedx 6y ago

SF doubled their budget over the past 10 years, while virtually every problem has gotten worse. More money isn't always the answer. Maybe the answer lies elsewhere...

throwaway316943 6y ago

That’s not the argument. Many people are willing to pay tax if they see evidence that it is being wisely managed and is improving the quality of life. If the money is disappearing into a vacuum of corruption and inefficiency then people will wisely avoid contributing to such a needless waste.