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because of 0.4% If California was well run, clean, and had otherwise lower tax, then .4% might be easy to ignore. But if you’re already on the fence, and not h

because of 0.4% If California was well run, clean, and had otherwise lower tax, then .4% might be easy to ignore. But if you’re already on the fence, and not happy with things, and have been talking to real estate agents in Seattle, Austin, Miami, or Singapore, then this just the kick in the butt you might need to go through with leaving.

ericmay 6y ago
Singapore is a weird one to throw in there with the others in that list. Could you elaborate?
- chiph 6y ago
  Likely for people with Chinese heritage or relatives. It's clean, orderly, and it's super easy to start a business there.
  - medium_burrito 6y ago
    Like Switzerland, but for Chinese people (and tropical, friendlier, flatter and grimier).
carlio 6y ago
Local governance running well, public services like cleaning, helping homeless etc, all require tax dollars. Saying "I'd pay tax if they had enough money they get from tax to fix the problems that cause me not to want to pay tax" seems like it's a bit of a chicken-egg problem.
- nthj 6y ago
  This argument seems to make sense on the surface, but California already has some of the highest income taxes in the country. To make an appeal to extremes, if California had a 40% income tax they wanted to raise to 45% asking, “show me how you have demonstrated good stewardship in what you are already taking” would be, I imagine, somewhat common. Reasonable people can of course debate that percentage, and can do so today based on California already having high income taxes.
  - secabeen 6y ago
    California does have high income tax, but property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation, and a recent attempt to reform those taxes failed. That leaves California 12th in state tax burden. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494 https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-bur...
    - klipt 6y ago
      Only helps if you're a homeowner. If you rent California probably has one of the highest tax burdens.
    - Natales 6y ago
      Property taxes in CA punish the newcomers and reward old money. When I bought in Mill Valley in 2001, I was literally paying 13X more taxes than my neighbor, a masseuse who inherited the property and kept the same tax rate her parents paid in the 70s. And as a very liberal town, every new tax initiative always passed, which again hit us harder. If at least Prop 13 benefits could not be passed as inheritance, that would go a long way to balance things. I'm happy I moved to WA now where my property taxes do get reassessed every year, but it balances out with no state income taxes.
    - pedrosorio 6y ago
      > property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation That's like citing the average rent in San Francisco. Great if you've been living in a rent controlled apartment for 30 years, but irrelevant if you've moved there recently.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    California’s governance with respect to property taxes is horrific and inequitable to the point that it should be illegal in many ways it has distorted the national economy in good and bad ways as folks sitting on property have turned into the 21st century version of a French aristocrat by sitting in their 50s ranch. That cohort of Californian is dying off now, and it may be better for all involved if companies pull out and disrupt the status quo. California’s incompetence shouldn’t drag down everything.
- gfxgirl 6y ago
  San Francisco spends $50k per homeless person. The problem doesn't seem like it's money
  - sharpneli 6y ago
    Really? That’s more money than we use for the unemployed here in Finland. And they get healthcare, food and house. SF is expensive for sure, but that expensive? Where is the money going to?
    - enahs-sf 6y ago
      a Rube Goldberg machine of non-profits and inefficient, non-transparent spending leaving little to help the plight of the less fortunate.
    - qznc 6y ago
      I remember an article from somewhere in the valley that they considered to support families in need with some money for housing. Family in need was defined as yearly household income below $250,000.
      - runamok 6y ago
        It's probably this you are thinking of: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto-considers-subsidized-housing-for-salary-up-to-250k-idUSKCN0WQ0CB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto... It sounds dumb but IIRC it's an attempt to have teachers and police and city employees able to live there...
    - rufus_foreman 6y ago
      Follow the drugs.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Individual cities can’t solve national problems. Due to migration there are no great solutions at the individual city level, other than being “blessed” with an inhospitable area.
- briga 6y ago
  But it seems like local governance doesn't work especially well for the state as a whole. I get the impression that the state has systemic problems that no tax will fix. Local governance is a problem in the state because all the wealthy cities do everything they can and use all their tax dollars to protect their own interests, often at the expense of everyone else. Needless to say it's a very complex problem and it's unclear that just throwing more tax dollars at everything will fix every problem every time.
- Reedx 6y ago
  SF doubled their budget over the past 10 years, while virtually every problem has gotten worse. More money isn't always the answer. Maybe the answer lies elsewhere...
- throwaway316943 6y ago
  That’s not the argument. Many people are willing to pay tax if they see evidence that it is being wisely managed and is improving the quality of life. If the money is disappearing into a vacuum of corruption and inefficiency then people will wisely avoid contributing to such a needless waste.
volkfish55 6y ago
I would be curious to know what's interesting in Singapore?
- flyinglizard 6y ago
  Well run, pro-capital and stable come to mind. I’d go the other way and ask what’s interesting in Miami... (I spent my share of time in Miami, thank you)
  - defterGoose 6y ago
    Yes, if you like the plebs getting arrested for spitting on the sidewalk or executed for shooting up, Singapore is the place for you!
    - meowster 6y ago
      40% of the people that live in Singapore are immigrants from different countries. They apparently value the trade-off.
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        I wonder if they'd like the trade-off if it didn't take 21 years to become an American citizen.
    - oblio 6y ago
      > arrested for spitting on the sidewalk Getting arrested is a bit much, but what's the redeeming quality of spitting on the sidewalk?
      - sagarm 6y ago
        It's the irony of people arguing that California is making them a "slave" and then advocating moving to a literal military dictatorship where jail for minor infractions like spitting on the sidewalk is routine. The drug laws are even more totalitarian. California has problems, but individual liberties and lives are treated with respect.
Trias11 6y ago
+ Nevada too
- ianai 6y ago
  As someone who lived in Nv for 10 years - I'm 50/50 on suggesting further people move there. On the one hand, the people who live there are genuinely horrible. Maybe an influx of new people will help the culture. Especially if they bring new industry with them. That said, the local industry pushes anything not-gambling or hospitality out. I suspect it'd just become more densely populated and even more hostile/violent. So move to Texas or the south east. They clearly need an influx of ... something.
  - cbozeman 6y ago
    Good comment... you've made it clear with these two statements: > On the one hand, the people who live there are genuinely horrible. > So move to Texas or the south east. They clearly need an influx of ... something. No, we don't. Please stay the fuck out of Texas. Its clear that what you really mean is, "These people don't share my radical political and social viewpoints, so they're bad." Don't come anywhere close to our state. Californians are already fucking up Texas, starting with Austin. I've only met one California couple that were likable, and he grew up in a desert city of 317 and she grew up in Northern California.
runarberg 6y ago
Good luck with that. I bet there is majority support already for similar tax measures in Seattle, Austin and Singapore. That leaves only Miami, which is going to be underwater in a few decades. So you are better of just staying and paying your extremely modest fair share
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Support for that in Austin? I doubt it. Not enough support that it has any chance of passing, anyway. (I say this as someone who doesn't live in Texas, and doesn't actually know. It's just my impression from afar. Add the appropriate amount of salt...)
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
0.4% is comparable to the wealth tax in Switzerland. I believe one of the differences is that in California, this would be on top of federal and state capital gains taxes, whereas in Switzerland, there is no tax on investment gains (from stock gaining value - dividends do count as income, and once ETFs with dividend-paying stocks get involved, it gets messy but TLDR you still pay the income tax on dividends).

ericmay 6y ago

Singapore is a weird one to throw in there with the others in that list. Could you elaborate?

chiph 6y ago
Likely for people with Chinese heritage or relatives. It's clean, orderly, and it's super easy to start a business there.
- medium_burrito 6y ago
  Like Switzerland, but for Chinese people (and tropical, friendlier, flatter and grimier).

carlio 6y ago

Local governance running well, public services like cleaning, helping homeless etc, all require tax dollars. Saying "I'd pay tax if they had enough money they get from tax to fix the problems that cause me not to want to pay tax" seems like it's a bit of a chicken-egg problem.

nthj 6y ago
This argument seems to make sense on the surface, but California already has some of the highest income taxes in the country. To make an appeal to extremes, if California had a 40% income tax they wanted to raise to 45% asking, “show me how you have demonstrated good stewardship in what you are already taking” would be, I imagine, somewhat common. Reasonable people can of course debate that percentage, and can do so today based on California already having high income taxes.
- secabeen 6y ago
  California does have high income tax, but property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation, and a recent attempt to reform those taxes failed. That leaves California 12th in state tax burden. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494 https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-bur...
  - klipt 6y ago
    Only helps if you're a homeowner. If you rent California probably has one of the highest tax burdens.
  - Natales 6y ago
    Property taxes in CA punish the newcomers and reward old money. When I bought in Mill Valley in 2001, I was literally paying 13X more taxes than my neighbor, a masseuse who inherited the property and kept the same tax rate her parents paid in the 70s. And as a very liberal town, every new tax initiative always passed, which again hit us harder. If at least Prop 13 benefits could not be passed as inheritance, that would go a long way to balance things. I'm happy I moved to WA now where my property taxes do get reassessed every year, but it balances out with no state income taxes.
  - pedrosorio 6y ago
    > property taxes are some of the lowest in the nation That's like citing the average rent in San Francisco. Great if you've been living in a rent controlled apartment for 30 years, but irrelevant if you've moved there recently.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  California’s governance with respect to property taxes is horrific and inequitable to the point that it should be illegal in many ways it has distorted the national economy in good and bad ways as folks sitting on property have turned into the 21st century version of a French aristocrat by sitting in their 50s ranch. That cohort of Californian is dying off now, and it may be better for all involved if companies pull out and disrupt the status quo. California’s incompetence shouldn’t drag down everything.
gfxgirl 6y ago
San Francisco spends $50k per homeless person. The problem doesn't seem like it's money
- sharpneli 6y ago
  Really? That’s more money than we use for the unemployed here in Finland. And they get healthcare, food and house. SF is expensive for sure, but that expensive? Where is the money going to?
  - enahs-sf 6y ago
    a Rube Goldberg machine of non-profits and inefficient, non-transparent spending leaving little to help the plight of the less fortunate.
  - qznc 6y ago
    I remember an article from somewhere in the valley that they considered to support families in need with some money for housing. Family in need was defined as yearly household income below $250,000.
    - runamok 6y ago
      It's probably this you are thinking of: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto-considers-subsidized-housing-for-salary-up-to-250k-idUSKCN0WQ0CB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-rent/palo-alto... It sounds dumb but IIRC it's an attempt to have teachers and police and city employees able to live there...
  - rufus_foreman 6y ago
    Follow the drugs.
- Retric 6y ago
  Individual cities can’t solve national problems. Due to migration there are no great solutions at the individual city level, other than being “blessed” with an inhospitable area.
briga 6y ago
But it seems like local governance doesn't work especially well for the state as a whole. I get the impression that the state has systemic problems that no tax will fix. Local governance is a problem in the state because all the wealthy cities do everything they can and use all their tax dollars to protect their own interests, often at the expense of everyone else. Needless to say it's a very complex problem and it's unclear that just throwing more tax dollars at everything will fix every problem every time.
Reedx 6y ago
SF doubled their budget over the past 10 years, while virtually every problem has gotten worse. More money isn't always the answer. Maybe the answer lies elsewhere...
throwaway316943 6y ago
That’s not the argument. Many people are willing to pay tax if they see evidence that it is being wisely managed and is improving the quality of life. If the money is disappearing into a vacuum of corruption and inefficiency then people will wisely avoid contributing to such a needless waste.

volkfish55 6y ago

I would be curious to know what's interesting in Singapore?

flyinglizard 6y ago
Well run, pro-capital and stable come to mind. I’d go the other way and ask what’s interesting in Miami... (I spent my share of time in Miami, thank you)
- defterGoose 6y ago
  Yes, if you like the plebs getting arrested for spitting on the sidewalk or executed for shooting up, Singapore is the place for you!
  - meowster 6y ago
    40% of the people that live in Singapore are immigrants from different countries. They apparently value the trade-off.
    - cbozeman 6y ago
      I wonder if they'd like the trade-off if it didn't take 21 years to become an American citizen.
  - oblio 6y ago
    > arrested for spitting on the sidewalk Getting arrested is a bit much, but what's the redeeming quality of spitting on the sidewalk?
    - sagarm 6y ago
      It's the irony of people arguing that California is making them a "slave" and then advocating moving to a literal military dictatorship where jail for minor infractions like spitting on the sidewalk is routine. The drug laws are even more totalitarian. California has problems, but individual liberties and lives are treated with respect.

Trias11 6y ago

+ Nevada too

ianai 6y ago
As someone who lived in Nv for 10 years - I'm 50/50 on suggesting further people move there. On the one hand, the people who live there are genuinely horrible. Maybe an influx of new people will help the culture. Especially if they bring new industry with them. That said, the local industry pushes anything not-gambling or hospitality out. I suspect it'd just become more densely populated and even more hostile/violent. So move to Texas or the south east. They clearly need an influx of ... something.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  Good comment... you've made it clear with these two statements: > On the one hand, the people who live there are genuinely horrible. > So move to Texas or the south east. They clearly need an influx of ... something. No, we don't. Please stay the fuck out of Texas. Its clear that what you really mean is, "These people don't share my radical political and social viewpoints, so they're bad." Don't come anywhere close to our state. Californians are already fucking up Texas, starting with Austin. I've only met one California couple that were likable, and he grew up in a desert city of 317 and she grew up in Northern California.

runarberg 6y ago

Good luck with that. I bet there is majority support already for similar tax measures in Seattle, Austin and Singapore. That leaves only Miami, which is going to be underwater in a few decades. So you are better of just staying and paying your extremely modest fair share

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Support for that in Austin? I doubt it. Not enough support that it has any chance of passing, anyway. (I say this as someone who doesn't live in Texas, and doesn't actually know. It's just my impression from afar. Add the appropriate amount of salt...)

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

0.4% is comparable to the wealth tax in Switzerland. I believe one of the differences is that in California, this would be on top of federal and state capital gains taxes, whereas in Switzerland, there is no tax on investment gains (from stock gaining value - dividends do count as income, and once ETFs with dividend-paying stocks get involved, it gets messy but TLDR you still pay the income tax on dividends).