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As a rough approximation, if you’re a US citizen, then You must file a US income tax return. The US taxes your worldwide income regardless of where it’s earned.

As a rough approximation, if you’re a US citizen, then You must file a US income tax return. The US taxes your worldwide income regardless of where it’s earned. BUT under most circumstances you would get a credit against what you owe the US for what you pay the country in which you earned the money and also wanted to tax you (no double taxation in theory) It’s kind of a pain for someone living in say Kenya which doesn’t have a tax treaty with the US, but it’s not totally absurd to think you owe something to a country whose citizenship you continue to benefit from.

eatbitseveryday 6y ago
How do I benefit from a country while not being in it?
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  The right to return and still be eligible for things like Social Security and Medicare.
  - ryan_j_naughton 6y ago
    Your social security benefits are derived, in part, from how much you paid in on your top earning years. Thus, if you didn't pay in you would have very very very little social security (which is already too small of a benefit to live off of). Thus, I don't think there is a moral hazard of social security that would cause people to return to the US for those benefits. They could amend the law (not sure if it's specifics) that you have to pay in a minimum amount if you want to be paid out while living in another country. Simple fix to remove any poorly aligned incentive. Medicare is much trickier as every American over 65 is entitled to it, but I'm not sure how that coverage works if you live outside the US.
  - NonEUCitizen 6y ago
    Social Security is not tied to US citizenship. A foreigner who has worked in the US enough years (and paid into Social Security during those years) can move back home and receive Social Security benefits upon retirement.
  - herbst 6y ago
    I have that too with an EU country i was born in. Yet i never paid taxes or anything to there
- throwaway98797 6y ago
  US embassies are in many countries.
  - herbst 6y ago
    Any embassy is in pretty much any country? Assuming a semi rich western country
- scrose 6y ago
  Well, in the US, one benefit is being able to freely travel to many other countries without needing to go through a months long visa application process.
  - herbst 6y ago
    My european passport opens a lot more doors, yet i dont pay taxes to the EU as i dont live there.
- JacobDotVI 6y ago
  The US Marines have been known to evacuate US citizens from foreign countries if war breaks out. Think of your taxes as an insurance premium for global personal safety.
- nradov 6y ago
  In theory if you get kidnapped by terrorists or something then the US government might try to rescue you.
  - throwaway13337 6y ago
    Kidnapped Americans have much worse outcomes on average than other country citizens. This is because the US makes it illegal for families to pay ransoms. As with most things international, not being American is an asset in such a situation. https://www.newamerica.org/international-security/policy-papers/pay-ransom-or-not/ https://www.newamerica.org/international-security/policy-pap...
  - herbst 6y ago
    If i moved away from the us because i misstrust them or whatever reason why would i care about their rescue? I never thought about my born Country is going to help with anything as i moved away and pay taxes somewhere else. I rather be rescued to “home“
    - nradov 6y ago
      In that case you should probably renounce your US citizenship. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega...
- trisiak 6y ago
  Country's passport has a value in itself. The one from the US enables you to leverage international travel treaties and visa arrangements. Just answering your question, not making a point on whether taxation is the correct way for US to "cover" for those benefits.
DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
IIRC that's true up to a certain $ limit. (Maybe around $120k of income?) After that it's double taxed (I think)
- spicyramen 6y ago
  Well, this statement may be valid in Cold War era, but anyone leaving US will probably go to a cheaper safer country where the possibility of this is close to 0
- jhfdbkofdcho 6y ago
  Right this is where it gets complicated, especially by the fact that the US has country specific tax treaty agreements lots of places. https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/us-tax-treaties.html https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/us-tax-treat...
ryan_j_naughton 6y ago
> but it’s not totally absurd to think you owe something to a country whose citizenship you continue to benefit from Yes it is honestly. The US is the only G7 county (and one of the only countries worldwide) to engage in extraterritorial taxation. It is absurd. If you are gaining from services in that country, you should pay taxes to that country. If you have moved abroad and aren't gaining from any services if that country, you should not. Because you are effectively not a member of that community anymore and should be contributing your taxes to another society. To even have to handle the double taxation accounting is ridiculous. It's that simple. Does someone gain benefits of being an American even when not living in America? Potentially, but many of those benefits could be connected to more targeted taxes than simply worldwide income tax. This is clearly not about justice and is instead about the long arm of the IRS seeking their pound of flesh anywhere they can get it. I know Americans who left the US 40 years ago and have lived and become fully integrated citizens of other countries. Yet simply to retain the right to return the US at some point, they must pay taxes every year in the middle? And trying to give up their citizenship isn't that easy either. If we want to prevent tax havens, I'm totally fine with that. Force sensible global tax regimes and prevent countries from being havens. But the solution isn't extraterritorial taxation.
- GavinMcG 6y ago
  > Because you are effectively not a member of that community anymore People have the choice of giving up their U.S. citizenship. > Yet simply to retain the right to return the US at some point, they must pay taxes every year in the middle? Yes? Or do we allow everyone who isn't participating in our society as a citizen would to come and go as they please?
  - lifeformed 6y ago
    But why not have that expectation of literally any other country in the world? Except for the US and Eretria.
    - pashamur 6y ago
      Other countries can have that expectation, but they can't enforce it - that's the main difference. The US can.
oblio 6y ago
> but it’s not totally absurd to think you owe something to a country whose citizenship you continue to benefit from. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights#Article_15 https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Hu... > Article 15 > 1. Everyone has the right to a nationality. > 2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. The US is one of the few countries in the world taxjng non resident citizens.
herbst 6y ago
It is absolutely absurd for me. I do not live in the country i was born at, it never contributed to me earning anything. I dont see why i would owe any tax to them

eatbitseveryday 6y ago

How do I benefit from a country while not being in it?

ceejayoz 6y ago
The right to return and still be eligible for things like Social Security and Medicare.
- ryan_j_naughton 6y ago
  Your social security benefits are derived, in part, from how much you paid in on your top earning years. Thus, if you didn't pay in you would have very very very little social security (which is already too small of a benefit to live off of). Thus, I don't think there is a moral hazard of social security that would cause people to return to the US for those benefits. They could amend the law (not sure if it's specifics) that you have to pay in a minimum amount if you want to be paid out while living in another country. Simple fix to remove any poorly aligned incentive. Medicare is much trickier as every American over 65 is entitled to it, but I'm not sure how that coverage works if you live outside the US.
- NonEUCitizen 6y ago
  Social Security is not tied to US citizenship. A foreigner who has worked in the US enough years (and paid into Social Security during those years) can move back home and receive Social Security benefits upon retirement.
- herbst 6y ago
  I have that too with an EU country i was born in. Yet i never paid taxes or anything to there
throwaway98797 6y ago
US embassies are in many countries.
- herbst 6y ago
  Any embassy is in pretty much any country? Assuming a semi rich western country
scrose 6y ago
Well, in the US, one benefit is being able to freely travel to many other countries without needing to go through a months long visa application process.
- herbst 6y ago
  My european passport opens a lot more doors, yet i dont pay taxes to the EU as i dont live there.
JacobDotVI 6y ago
The US Marines have been known to evacuate US citizens from foreign countries if war breaks out. Think of your taxes as an insurance premium for global personal safety.
nradov 6y ago
In theory if you get kidnapped by terrorists or something then the US government might try to rescue you.
- throwaway13337 6y ago
  Kidnapped Americans have much worse outcomes on average than other country citizens. This is because the US makes it illegal for families to pay ransoms. As with most things international, not being American is an asset in such a situation. https://www.newamerica.org/international-security/policy-papers/pay-ransom-or-not/ https://www.newamerica.org/international-security/policy-pap...
- herbst 6y ago
  If i moved away from the us because i misstrust them or whatever reason why would i care about their rescue? I never thought about my born Country is going to help with anything as i moved away and pay taxes somewhere else. I rather be rescued to “home“
  - nradov 6y ago
    In that case you should probably renounce your US citizenship. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-lega...
trisiak 6y ago
Country's passport has a value in itself. The one from the US enables you to leverage international travel treaties and visa arrangements. Just answering your question, not making a point on whether taxation is the correct way for US to "cover" for those benefits.

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago

IIRC that's true up to a certain $ limit. (Maybe around $120k of income?) After that it's double taxed (I think)

spicyramen 6y ago
Well, this statement may be valid in Cold War era, but anyone leaving US will probably go to a cheaper safer country where the possibility of this is close to 0
jhfdbkofdcho 6y ago
Right this is where it gets complicated, especially by the fact that the US has country specific tax treaty agreements lots of places. https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/us-tax-treaties.html https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/us-tax-treat...

ryan_j_naughton 6y ago

> but it’s not totally absurd to think you owe something to a country whose citizenship you continue to benefit from Yes it is honestly. The US is the only G7 county (and one of the only countries worldwide) to engage in extraterritorial taxation. It is absurd. If you are gaining from services in that country, you should pay taxes to that country. If you have moved abroad and aren't gaining from any services if that country, you should not. Because you are effectively not a member of that community anymore and should be contributing your taxes to another society. To even have to handle the double taxation accounting is ridiculous. It's that simple. Does someone gain benefits of being an American even when not living in America? Potentially, but many of those benefits could be connected to more targeted taxes than simply worldwide income tax. This is clearly not about justice and is instead about the long arm of the IRS seeking their pound of flesh anywhere they can get it. I know Americans who left the US 40 years ago and have lived and become fully integrated citizens of other countries. Yet simply to retain the right to return the US at some point, they must pay taxes every year in the middle? And trying to give up their citizenship isn't that easy either. If we want to prevent tax havens, I'm totally fine with that. Force sensible global tax regimes and prevent countries from being havens. But the solution isn't extraterritorial taxation.

GavinMcG 6y ago
> Because you are effectively not a member of that community anymore People have the choice of giving up their U.S. citizenship. > Yet simply to retain the right to return the US at some point, they must pay taxes every year in the middle? Yes? Or do we allow everyone who isn't participating in our society as a citizen would to come and go as they please?
- lifeformed 6y ago
  But why not have that expectation of literally any other country in the world? Except for the US and Eretria.
  - pashamur 6y ago
    Other countries can have that expectation, but they can't enforce it - that's the main difference. The US can.

oblio 6y ago

> but it’s not totally absurd to think you owe something to a country whose citizenship you continue to benefit from. https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights#Article_15 https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Hu... > Article 15 > 1. Everyone has the right to a nationality. > 2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. The US is one of the few countries in the world taxjng non resident citizens.

herbst 6y ago

It is absolutely absurd for me. I do not live in the country i was born at, it never contributed to me earning anything. I dont see why i would owe any tax to them