8 ms·

These whining rotors will be the last sound some poor freedom fighters hear in 10 years. And of course 10 years later the black market will have caught up, and

These whining rotors will be the last sound some poor freedom fighters hear in 10 years. And of course 10 years later the black market will have caught up, and these automated killers will be deployed by anyone from anywhere with near impunity. More accurate than a roadside bomb, probably less risk as well.

imtringued 6y ago
I would be more worried about the fact that a government would want to kill me rather than the method it chooses to kill me. I don't need to be a freedom fighter to get shot by the police in the USA yet nobody cares as much unless it is done by some stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon.
- djohnston 6y ago
  I think there is an interplay between the means of killing and the willingness to do so that you shouldn't ignore. The U.S. elevated extralegal killing of brown people to a full-time pursuit under the Obama administration with the proliferation of the drone program. It's not as easy to blow up a wedding with an F18 as it is to do so from a trailer in Arizona, for some reason.
  - bee_rider 6y ago
    Every president since we've had drones has killed more people with drones than the last guy. Bit early to call it a trend I guess, since we only armed the things toward the end of Bush's last term, but still seems worrying.
    - Throwaway1771 6y ago
      > Bit early to call it a trend Disagree. These programs, from the President's perspective, are as autonomous as the machines. Barely any interaction, if any, is required from the W.H. to keep the bombs dropping.
  - Shivetya 6y ago
    the extrajudicial execution of American's abroad by using drones was by far the most glaring change in US policy during that Administration
    - kyboren 6y ago
      I'm not sure why this is downvoted. Obama established the precedent that it's totally kosher to use flying death robots to murder US citizens without any semblance of due process. You just have to claim (but not actually produce any evidence or convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt) that they posed an imminent threat to the US.
      - Retric 6y ago
        That’s been the case for a very long time. Even ignoring the civil war, US citizens for example fought on both sides of WWII both before and after it entered the war. As soon as you start talking millions of people you end up with some extreme outliers. The only thing that’s changed is we have a slightly better idea who we are shooting over time. PS: Somewhat more bizarrely, letters of marque and reprisal mean private citizens can get the rights to kill other Americans who happen to be working on non military foreign ships.
- erdos4d 6y ago
  > some stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon Please watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA
  - AnotherGoodName 6y ago
    I think the real world examples are better than a hypothetical. https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/jgmou6/azerbaijani_drone_strikes_on_manoeuvring_armenian/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/jgmou6/azerb... Warning: This contains real world footage with examples including troops in a foxhole being precisely targeted by a drone that you can see on film moving into the foxhole with them that then explodes, numerous cases of troops in an open field spotting a drone, running from it and then exploding. Also contains numerous examples of tank and vehicle columns as well as fixed emplacements exploding. I think we're there. As of 2020, and in particular the Nagarno-Karabakh war it's clear that having more drones than the other side is the key. Number of troops, tanks and gun emplacements isn't as relevant anymore. Mid-sized drones such as the Harop drone trump all of those.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon. Have you not heard of the recent Azeri invasion of Artsakh? It was a major war between modern armies that was won by small drone warfare, just a few weeks ago.
  - vmh1928 6y ago
    Yes, watch any of the Azerbaijan drone videos on Youtube. They decimated the conventional (tanks, vehicles, bunkers, artillery,) Armenian forces with "relatively" inexpensive Turkish and Israeli drones. A real object lesson about the future of warfare and the need for airborne countermeasures. A swarm of inexpensive drones like in this video, each one carrying an explosive charge, could easily overwhelm a traditional military position; in a forest, in a bunker or cave, behind fences, inside buildings. Hardly a toy.
    - hunter-gatherer 6y ago
      As a combat Infamtryman (2007) the drone footage gave me chills watching. Im glad I don't have to fight in a war where drones are the norm. When I was in our drones were still very much in the early stages and practical use seemed very far off. There is definitely some serious amount of money for anyone who can field technology to defend tanks, infantry, and artillery from this sort of onslaught.
      - enriquto 6y ago
        No need to have been in the military, these images are downright terrifying for anybody who understands what's going on... to think that thousands of young boys were killed there in a few days!
  - mr_toad 6y ago
    ‘Small’ as in wingspans of up to 3 meters. You’d have trouble flying something that big through a forest no matter how manoeuvrable it was.
- elsonrodriguez 6y ago
  > yet nobody cares as much unless it is done by some stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon. You're correct that that government wanting to kill you is a primary concern. However you're submitting this comment under a story with a video of drones flying autonomously through a forest, in a world where facial recognition is commonplace, and commercial drones can easily carry the weight of a polymer firearm. There is value in the inherent friction a state encounters when deciding to kill someone. A lot of people have to say yes, and a person usually has to pull some kind of trigger. Reduce that friction, reduce the amount of people involved, and it is a guarantee that coups and purges will be too tempting of an option for power seekers.
- JKCalhoun 6y ago
  Depends. If you were high profile, you might be more concerned about the means. For example, you might feel secure on your remote island retreat with its own airfield, security system, etc. That any nut (not "Government") with a drone carrying an IED could surgically take you out would very likely worry that individual much more than it would worry you or me.
- markkanof 6y ago
  I recently watched the movie Angel Has Fallen on Netflix. The movie starts out with an assassination attempt on the president by a swarm of drones armed with explosives. The secret service agents were (not surprisingly) completely ineffective at defending against these drones using their hand guns. Just a fictional movie, but was still pretty terrifying to think about. https://www.netflix.com/title/80190284 https://www.netflix.com/title/80190284
- trianglem 6y ago
  Your last statement might be the most short sighted statement I’ve read this month. In fact I don’t even think it’s short sighted, they are already incredibly practical weapons.
globular-toast 6y ago
I'm immediately reminded of the "drones" in Half-Life 2. It really seems like the dystopia is here already.
maxerickson 6y ago
Drones are a significant factor in present day conflicts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Military_tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Mili...
- paganel 6y ago
  Exactly. The Turkish military perfected that tactic earlier in the year, that's how they managed to suppress the Syrian Army's latest advance (which had been quite successful until that point). Artillery + drones proved to be too much for the Syrian Army [1]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2020/03/02/idlib-onslaught-turkish-drones-artillery-and-f-16s-just-destroyed-over-100-armored-vehicles-in-syria-and-downed-two-jets/?sh=68fb1f216cd3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2020/03/02/idli...
- djohnston 6y ago
  Yep, I think there is still time before they become popular black market weapons, but not that much time.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  To be clear, those drones are more akin to unmanned planes than they are to quadrocopters.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Except for the one that is a quadrocopter (I guess use in the conflict I linked is not verified, but it's in use today none the less): https://www.stm.com.tr/en/kargu-autonomous-tactical-multi-rotor-attack-uav https://www.stm.com.tr/en/kargu-autonomous-tactical-multi-ro... I suppose the different types of drones will cause different types of tactical shifts.
    - sbilstein 6y ago
      Oof some engineer is working on machine-learning to deal with the knockback of shooting a gun from a drone. It's probably an interesting as hell problem, enough to distract someone from the fact that they'll be enabling cheap robots to shoot people. It is so sad that we, humans in general, devote so many resources to devising bigger and better means of violence.
pvarangot 6y ago
I agree with your sentiment but this already happens only that a human is piloting the drones. This is just a cost reduction, and discussing the ethics of it is more tricky.
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  I think it's more than a cost reduction, if a human is flying the drones then there is still someone who can rebel. If the only person who needs to actually do anything at all is a 4 star General it becomes alot easier to start mass killings
fsflover 6y ago
See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fa9lVwHHqg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fa9lVwHHqg.
- MH15 6y ago
  Link to the original creators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA
uhtred 6y ago
That's the first thing I thought of when I saw it. The Viet Cong are lucky this kind of thing didn't exist in 1968.
philsnow 6y ago
Periodic plug for Daniel Suarez https://daniel-suarez.com/ https://daniel-suarez.com/ , I'm certain I recall a "death drone swarm" in one of the books but can't recall which one. It happens on a snowy mountain with a cabin, if that will ring bells for anybody else. His writing is fairly-near-future (10-30 years) and uncomfortable in much the same way that the show Silicon Valley can be uncomfortable (that is, it's so close to the truth / likely near-future that it hurts). I swear I don't know the guy, but this will be my... sixth recommendation of his books on HN. I just love me some near-future peri-apocalyptic fiction.
- philsnow 6y ago
  Ah, remembered the title, it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision
hooande 6y ago
one of the rules of modern warfare is "don't use a drone when a bomb would do". I'm certainly not worried about collateral damage to trees. if my target is in a forest, just blow the whole thing up
- trianglem 6y ago
  But where in a large forest is your enemy? These things can search and destroy, especially if they get quieter. Imagine letting these things lose in a cave system. Explore, seek and destroy with no human intervention.

imtringued 6y ago

I would be more worried about the fact that a government would want to kill me rather than the method it chooses to kill me. I don't need to be a freedom fighter to get shot by the police in the USA yet nobody cares as much unless it is done by some stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon.

djohnston 6y ago
I think there is an interplay between the means of killing and the willingness to do so that you shouldn't ignore. The U.S. elevated extralegal killing of brown people to a full-time pursuit under the Obama administration with the proliferation of the drone program. It's not as easy to blow up a wedding with an F18 as it is to do so from a trailer in Arizona, for some reason.
- bee_rider 6y ago
  Every president since we've had drones has killed more people with drones than the last guy. Bit early to call it a trend I guess, since we only armed the things toward the end of Bush's last term, but still seems worrying.
  - Throwaway1771 6y ago
    > Bit early to call it a trend Disagree. These programs, from the President's perspective, are as autonomous as the machines. Barely any interaction, if any, is required from the W.H. to keep the bombs dropping.
- Shivetya 6y ago
  the extrajudicial execution of American's abroad by using drones was by far the most glaring change in US policy during that Administration
  - kyboren 6y ago
    I'm not sure why this is downvoted. Obama established the precedent that it's totally kosher to use flying death robots to murder US citizens without any semblance of due process. You just have to claim (but not actually produce any evidence or convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt) that they posed an imminent threat to the US.
    - Retric 6y ago
      That’s been the case for a very long time. Even ignoring the civil war, US citizens for example fought on both sides of WWII both before and after it entered the war. As soon as you start talking millions of people you end up with some extreme outliers. The only thing that’s changed is we have a slightly better idea who we are shooting over time. PS: Somewhat more bizarrely, letters of marque and reprisal mean private citizens can get the rights to kill other Americans who happen to be working on non military foreign ships.
erdos4d 6y ago
> some stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon Please watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA
- AnotherGoodName 6y ago
  I think the real world examples are better than a hypothetical. https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/jgmou6/azerbaijani_drone_strikes_on_manoeuvring_armenian/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/jgmou6/azerb... Warning: This contains real world footage with examples including troops in a foxhole being precisely targeted by a drone that you can see on film moving into the foxhole with them that then explodes, numerous cases of troops in an open field spotting a drone, running from it and then exploding. Also contains numerous examples of tank and vehicle columns as well as fixed emplacements exploding. I think we're there. As of 2020, and in particular the Nagarno-Karabakh war it's clear that having more drones than the other side is the key. Number of troops, tanks and gun emplacements isn't as relevant anymore. Mid-sized drones such as the Harop drone trump all of those.
enriquto 6y ago
> stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon. Have you not heard of the recent Azeri invasion of Artsakh? It was a major war between modern armies that was won by small drone warfare, just a few weeks ago.
- vmh1928 6y ago
  Yes, watch any of the Azerbaijan drone videos on Youtube. They decimated the conventional (tanks, vehicles, bunkers, artillery,) Armenian forces with "relatively" inexpensive Turkish and Israeli drones. A real object lesson about the future of warfare and the need for airborne countermeasures. A swarm of inexpensive drones like in this video, each one carrying an explosive charge, could easily overwhelm a traditional military position; in a forest, in a bunker or cave, behind fences, inside buildings. Hardly a toy.
  - hunter-gatherer 6y ago
    As a combat Infamtryman (2007) the drone footage gave me chills watching. Im glad I don't have to fight in a war where drones are the norm. When I was in our drones were still very much in the early stages and practical use seemed very far off. There is definitely some serious amount of money for anyone who can field technology to defend tanks, infantry, and artillery from this sort of onslaught.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      No need to have been in the military, these images are downright terrifying for anybody who understands what's going on... to think that thousands of young boys were killed there in a few days!
- mr_toad 6y ago
  ‘Small’ as in wingspans of up to 3 meters. You’d have trouble flying something that big through a forest no matter how manoeuvrable it was.
elsonrodriguez 6y ago
> yet nobody cares as much unless it is done by some stupid toy that is never going to be a practical weapon. You're correct that that government wanting to kill you is a primary concern. However you're submitting this comment under a story with a video of drones flying autonomously through a forest, in a world where facial recognition is commonplace, and commercial drones can easily carry the weight of a polymer firearm. There is value in the inherent friction a state encounters when deciding to kill someone. A lot of people have to say yes, and a person usually has to pull some kind of trigger. Reduce that friction, reduce the amount of people involved, and it is a guarantee that coups and purges will be too tempting of an option for power seekers.
JKCalhoun 6y ago
Depends. If you were high profile, you might be more concerned about the means. For example, you might feel secure on your remote island retreat with its own airfield, security system, etc. That any nut (not "Government") with a drone carrying an IED could surgically take you out would very likely worry that individual much more than it would worry you or me.
markkanof 6y ago
I recently watched the movie Angel Has Fallen on Netflix. The movie starts out with an assassination attempt on the president by a swarm of drones armed with explosives. The secret service agents were (not surprisingly) completely ineffective at defending against these drones using their hand guns. Just a fictional movie, but was still pretty terrifying to think about. https://www.netflix.com/title/80190284 https://www.netflix.com/title/80190284
trianglem 6y ago
Your last statement might be the most short sighted statement I’ve read this month. In fact I don’t even think it’s short sighted, they are already incredibly practical weapons.

globular-toast 6y ago

I'm immediately reminded of the "drones" in Half-Life 2. It really seems like the dystopia is here already.

maxerickson 6y ago

Drones are a significant factor in present day conflicts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Military_tactics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Nagorno-Karabakh_war#Mili...

paganel 6y ago
Exactly. The Turkish military perfected that tactic earlier in the year, that's how they managed to suppress the Syrian Army's latest advance (which had been quite successful until that point). Artillery + drones proved to be too much for the Syrian Army [1]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2020/03/02/idlib-onslaught-turkish-drones-artillery-and-f-16s-just-destroyed-over-100-armored-vehicles-in-syria-and-downed-two-jets/?sh=68fb1f216cd3 https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienroblin/2020/03/02/idli...
djohnston 6y ago
Yep, I think there is still time before they become popular black market weapons, but not that much time.
whimsicalism 6y ago
To be clear, those drones are more akin to unmanned planes than they are to quadrocopters.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Except for the one that is a quadrocopter (I guess use in the conflict I linked is not verified, but it's in use today none the less): https://www.stm.com.tr/en/kargu-autonomous-tactical-multi-rotor-attack-uav https://www.stm.com.tr/en/kargu-autonomous-tactical-multi-ro... I suppose the different types of drones will cause different types of tactical shifts.
  - sbilstein 6y ago
    Oof some engineer is working on machine-learning to deal with the knockback of shooting a gun from a drone. It's probably an interesting as hell problem, enough to distract someone from the fact that they'll be enabling cheap robots to shoot people. It is so sad that we, humans in general, devote so many resources to devising bigger and better means of violence.

pvarangot 6y ago

I agree with your sentiment but this already happens only that a human is piloting the drones. This is just a cost reduction, and discussing the ethics of it is more tricky.

thatguy0900 6y ago
I think it's more than a cost reduction, if a human is flying the drones then there is still someone who can rebel. If the only person who needs to actually do anything at all is a 4 star General it becomes alot easier to start mass killings

fsflover 6y ago

See also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fa9lVwHHqg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fa9lVwHHqg.

MH15 6y ago
Link to the original creators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA

uhtred 6y ago

That's the first thing I thought of when I saw it. The Viet Cong are lucky this kind of thing didn't exist in 1968.

philsnow 6y ago

Periodic plug for Daniel Suarez https://daniel-suarez.com/ https://daniel-suarez.com/ , I'm certain I recall a "death drone swarm" in one of the books but can't recall which one. It happens on a snowy mountain with a cabin, if that will ring bells for anybody else. His writing is fairly-near-future (10-30 years) and uncomfortable in much the same way that the show Silicon Valley can be uncomfortable (that is, it's so close to the truth / likely near-future that it hurts). I swear I don't know the guy, but this will be my... sixth recommendation of his books on HN. I just love me some near-future peri-apocalyptic fiction.

philsnow 6y ago
Ah, remembered the title, it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision

hooande 6y ago

one of the rules of modern warfare is "don't use a drone when a bomb would do". I'm certainly not worried about collateral damage to trees. if my target is in a forest, just blow the whole thing up

trianglem 6y ago
But where in a large forest is your enemy? These things can search and destroy, especially if they get quieter. Imagine letting these things lose in a cave system. Explore, seek and destroy with no human intervention.